[k_semler]

I agree with the other posters, but I must add that you must read "The Decline and Fall of Pax Americana", it is very relevant to this topic of hoarding.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'P')ersonally, I think hoarders are the scum of the earth.
If a hard energy crunch hits, we'll all have to move to a wartime footing, and the sacrifices will have to be shared. We will all have to work together in the national interest, and hoarders will need to be socially and criminally sanctioned.
.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattSavinar', '
')If anything, you are three times the scoundrel I am as you have reproduced and thus contributed to the overpopulation and resource shortage problem.
Matt

[Malthus]

Hell I must be the hoarder of all horders. I have in my basement 1700 ounces of gold in bars + 100 krugerrand 1 ounce/coins, 25000 ounces of silver and I am expecting delivery 500 ounces of palladium later this month and have 225 hectares mainly forest. I dont care for other people if they are irresponsible and ignorant they must suffer the consequences dont forget that they enjoyed the consumption frenzy. I am not sharing my property and wealth with anybody. If they are starving to death its not my problem feeding and helping hungry people today means that you would have to feed more hungry people tomorrow. I could only help people that can give me something of value in return like working as serfs for food. Should I not profit from the ignorance of others? Does this make me scum. I dont know I usually profit from the losses of others.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')Someone said if you wish to seem wise don't say anything. Having children is the best and wisest choice any human ever made.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattSavinar', 'W')e both obtain money to buy food. Are we not both equally scoundrels?

If anything, you are three times the scoundrel I am as you have reproduced and thus contributed to the overpopulation and resource shortage problem.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Malthus', 'I') could only help people that can give me something of value in return like working as serfs for food.

[DomusAlbion]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattSavinar', 'D')omusAlbion,

According to your own logic, it would make you a scoundrel. Your words from the "Peak Oil Groupie Gear" thread:

"No doubt, that's what business is all about, but it all makes me doubt Matt's sincerity. I suppose there is no situation that comes along where some scoundrel will not make a profit from it."

If charging money for my book (or anything else I sell) so I can buy food, take permaculture classes, etc. . . makes me a scoundrel, how can you consider yourself prudent when you charge money for whatever it is you do for a living so you can buy food?

[... snip]

Who's the real scoundrel?
Matt

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ell I must be the hoarder of all horders. I have in my basement 1700 ounces of gold in bars + 100 krugerrand 1 ounce/coins, 25000 ounces of silver and I am expecting delivery 500 ounces of palladium later this month and have 225 hectares mainly forest.

[born2respawn]

I think you're mad, mate. People should be encouraged to stash stuff away now, not accused of being hoarders and pilloried. Think about it: Every ration pack I squirrel away, every tin of food I store is one less meal that the Gov't has to provide me when it all falls down. It's taking the burden off of the system that'll be providing for you if it sees fit.

If you want to rely on the Gov't then go for it, but you seem to be keeping rather odd company.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('born2respawn', 'T')hink about it: Every ration pack I squirrel away, every tin of food I store is one less meal that the Gov't has to provide me when it all falls down. It's taking the burden off of the system that'll be providing for you if it sees fit.

If you want to rely on the Gov't then go for it, but you seem to be keeping rather odd company.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'A')dd that up and you are a member of the "super rich."
God bless you!

[gg3]

Y'all are fighting over entirely different definitions and most of you don't even know it:


1) First key distinction: TIME.

a: Accumulating resources over a LENGTHY period of time BEFORE the crisis occurs.

b: Accumulating resources over a SHORT period of time WHEN the crisis or market scarcity occurs.


2) Second key distinction: QUANTITY.

a: Quantity sufficient for oneself and one's household to sustain during an anticipated crisis, plus some surplus for trade within a "level playing field" market.

b: Quantity so far beyond (2a above) that much of it will likely go to waste.

c: Quantity that is calculated to enable one to impose one's will upon others arbitrarily, via control of resources they need.


The English language is ill-equipped to encapsulate these distinctions into a few simple words or phrases. However, we might try:

"Stockpiling" has the shade of meaning of (1a above). "Hoarding" has the shade of meaning of (1b above).

(2a) might be described as "prudent" behavior. (2b) might be described as "profligate" behavior." (2c) might be described as "imperious" behavior.

In that case:

Hoarding is wrong because it imposes sudden shock loads on the market distribution system during times when it is already weakened by shortage. In doing so it breaks the system: makes the system useless to other participants. Markets work when throughput is predictable: buyers and sellers can plan, and supply can be adjusted to anticipated demand. Or alternately, in cases of shortage, price adjustments can occur in a predictable manner; or some kind of nonmarket allocation (rationing) can be conducted fairly.

Stockpiling as such is not morally culpable precisely because it does not impose a shock load on the market system. Stockpiling over time produces a slight increase in demand, which is met with either an increase in supply or a price adjustment; the feedback systems have time to operate.

Clearly, prudence is laudable because it acts as a stabilizing influence on the distribution of resources, and in general reduces load on systems that are in crisis. Profligacy and imperiousness are culpable; the former because it is purely entropic and the latter because it is parasitic.

[k_semler]

@gg3

I would say that is a very good explination, and quite honestly along the lines of the way I am thinking. Waiting until the last second to biuld up your invintory not only reduces your capabilities to biuld suffecient quantites of product nessecary to survive, but it also detracts from the ability of others, (the unprepared sheeple), as well as contributing to the panic. Examples of this panic buying have been rampent throughout history, from the hurricane "preperations", to war preperations, to volcanic eruptions. We are all familiar how fast the store shelves empty, and how few people actually get the supplies that they need. Likewise, persons who choose to biuld up thier invintory over a period of time have very little effect on the end panic situation, as they have generally completed thier preperations when supplies are in sufficient enough quantities to not have any substancial impact on the supply v. demand curve. For an example, the only thing I bought in preperation for Y2K out of the norm was 10 extra gallons of gasoline. As it turned out, I WAY over prepared for that, as the only odd thing about the rollover was the gas pump said 01/15/19100, (versus 01/15/2000), as the date on the reciept. I thought it was funnier than hell.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')Someone said if you wish to seem wise don't say anything. Having children is the best and wisest choice any human ever made.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DomusAlbion', '
') In a good law practice you could be making a 6 figure salary now and buying your retreat/sanctuary for the future. Instead you're selling t shirts?
I guess I just don't get it.

[Malthus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')dd that up and you are a member of the "super rich." Half the people on this board want to steal everything you have and give it to the
poor. They want to spread the misery around.

God bless you! If I were in your position, I'd be doing the same thing. One note on the palladium, I don't think most people understand how valuable that stuff is. You might not be able to sell it Post Peak. Gold and silver have value. Everyone knows that. But I don't think people will trade a loaf of bread for palladium.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Compare this problem with Y2K. I was extensively prepared for that. Having researched it and not being able to convince myself it was nothing to worry about I got ready. The assumption there was that if the world's information/communications infrastructure collapses suddenly that everything would fall apart quickly. For that scenario it made sense to be prepared to stay indoors for months (going outside briefly in the predawn hours to take care of a few neccessary things.) Outside would be deadly - flies everywhere all carrying diseases. I could have stayed inside for a year with what I had hoarded (and with plenty of duct tape to keep out the flies). I had no expectation of any authorities coming around to confiscate supplies because I assumed all social structures would be erased. Peak Oil is entirely different in that there is not likely to be a collapse of social authority. The situation will just get deeper and darker all the time with the government still intact to attempt to control things. Hoarding will be a crime to whoever or whateveer constitutes the 'social authority.' I had planned to start farming in 2001. When are you folks who want to ride this out going to start farming?

[gg3]

Here's an exercise I posted in another topic, in case anyone missed it. Call it "abstract hoarding made visible."

Count out relative net financial worth in terms of grains of rice. $100k per grain of rice.

You're skilled and successful, you have $100k equity in your house and maybe the same in your investments and retirement accounts. Put two grains of rice on the table.

Your rich neighbor who is your current picture of what "rich" means: maybe his house is worth a couple million of which he has a million in equity, and maybe another million in investments and retirement accounts. That's two million, so count out twenty grains of rice in his pile.

Next, the real aristocracy. Let's say the threshold for that is individual net worth of a billion. Count out ten thousand grains of rice to put in that person's pile. Keep track of how long it takes you to count out those ten thousand grains of rice.

Meanwhile, the guy who does household repairs and yard maintenance in your neighborhood gets a fifth of a grain of rice, but if you don't want to try cutting up grains of rice, a few grains of salt will do.

And for most of the world's population, one or two specks of wheat flour.

If you want to put it on a graph, your net worth is a line two inches tall. Your "rich" neighbor is a line that's twenty inches tall. The member of the new aristocracy is a line that's a little over 833 feet tall.

You and your millionaire neighbor have more in common with the guy who mows your lawn, than either of you do with the new aristocrat. The aristocracy's ceaseless propaganda has most of the modestly-successful identifying with (and looking out for the interests of) the aristocrats: everyone wants to be "rich" and thinks "rich" means the guy with the big house and a couple million net worth. But it ain't so. He's a small fry too.

What happens when peak hits, growth grinds to a halt, and the tide ceases to rise and lift the boats of anyone industrious enough to row?

Hoarding? Who's really hoarding?

[Golgo13]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TrueKaiser', 'h')oarders are just setting them selfs up to be target number one when the shtf. i hope you stocked up on enough ammo to kill your neighborhood, your gonna need it.