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Hey! Now we're wasting money blowing up comets!!

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Unread postby agni » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 00:40:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('albente', ' ')Our mind is the mirror image of the outer universe, how could it be otherwise?


Okay, tell me what is the mirror image of the black hole, neutron star, pulsars, quasars, fusion reactions, dark matter etc? What exactly led you to make that quote?

-A
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 01:28:16

hippest cat on peakoil.com? My vote goes to the Kraut salesman of fine foods!
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Unread postby aldente » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 10:23:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('agni', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('albente', ' ')Our mind is the mirror image of the outer universe, how could it be otherwise?

Okay, tell me what is the mirror image of the black hole, neutron star, pulsars, quasars, fusion reactions, dark matter etc? What exactly led you to make that quote?-A


Your recognition of all the mentioned above is a step in that direction already! I guess as long as you have not entered the inner space there is no way to comprehend. The possibilities of your mind are literally "mind boggling".

Let's start practical like John Lilly did it:
Image

The path that he followed as early as back in the 1950's was based around the question of what happens to the mind once you deprive it of all outside impulses? He developed a sensory deprivation tank and described one of his early experiences as follows (note, the "furthest stage" was the furthest stage back in the 50's, we don't talk about where he went in 60's and 70's, in particular combining these sessions with LSD - blows my mind away to only think of that):

"...if the tension and the fantasies are withstood, one may experience the furthest stage which we have yet explored: projection of visual imagery. I have seen this once, after a two-and-one-half hour period. The black curtain in front of the eyes (such as one "sees" in a dark room with eyes closed) gradually opens out into a three-dimensional dark, empty space in front of the body. This phenomenon captures one's interest immediately, and one waits to find out what comes next. Gradually forms of the type sometimes seen in hypnogogic states appear. In this case they were small, strangely shared objects with selfluminous borders. A tunnel whose inside "space" seemed to be emitting a blue light then appeared straight ahead."

I used one of these tanks frequently back in the mid 90's since I had a good contact with a manufacturer back in Switzerland where I lived at the time. Eventhough my use of the tank was way more pragmatic: I simply listend to good music from 5:00 to 6:00 am before going to work. A great way to start the day. This is me by the way in that picture:

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Unread postby agni » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 12:19:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('albente', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('agni', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('albente', ' ')Our mind is the mirror image of the outer universe, how could it be otherwise?

Okay, tell me what is the mirror image of the black hole, neutron star, pulsars, quasars, fusion reactions, dark matter etc? What exactly led you to make that quote?-A


Your recognition of all the mentioned above is a step in that direction already! I guess as long as you have not entered the inner space there is no way to comprehend. The possibilities of your mind are literally "mind boggling".


Sorry, I'll admit that we don't know that much about the mind (I was a neuroscience student for a while), making the leap to everything in the universe is mirrored in the mind is a bit overarching. It's like "We don't know what's in that box ---> That means there's Godzilla in that box!!"

-A
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Unread postby aldente » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 13:24:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('agni', 'S')orry, I'll admit that we don't know that much about the mind ."We don't know what's in that box ---> That means there's Godzilla in that box!!"


No need to be sorry Agni, I am not an expert about the mind either and as much as I wish to float in a Samadhi tank on LSD - I don't have access to that substance which has been declared illegal in 1969.

From a pragmatic point of view though personal experiences are subject to variables in particular the parameters of perception of the individual observer. The common material reality on the other hand is something we all can agree on and in that sense space exploration is certainly justified. I guess this is the whole premise of science in the first place: To work within parameters where results are reproducable.

Congratulations to this success :

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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 15:44:57

The fly agaric mushroom (amanita muscaria) is legal. Its an ancient visionary substance guaranteed to make any sensory deprivation tank experiments interesting. (There was a trippy movie made about this - Altered States; in which William Hurt used a central Mexico psychedelic concoction and sensory deprivation tanks with wild results)
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Unread postby Omnitir » Tue 05 Jul 2005, 05:41:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('k_semler', '
')Art serves no useful purpose.

An interesting viewpoint. Of course art is not just paintings as you indicated, buy many aspects of our culture. Art serves as entertainment. Most of the time entertainment = art (except for when big business gets involved: ). Can anyone honestly believe that if we lost all/most of our paintings/drawings, music, literature, modern media (movies, shows, animations, games etc), that it would be no great loss to humanity? Was it all just a waste of time?

Though I do tend to agree with you K about abstract art though. :evil:
I just don’t get it. But then I don’t get a lot of modern music and film also… :cry:


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('albente', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 't')he collision of a comet with high-tech instruments is the best means we have to study an important aspect of our solar system.
Choose a better target to attack.


YOU are the target! Who tf gives a shit about our solar system while our precious and thin live supporting bioshpere is under severe attack?


Huh? I was saying that people should choose a better target then space research to claim as a waste of money (like war or consumerism).


If the same amount of money currently spent globally on war and needless consumption were instead spent on research and development into the sciences, we could solve all our problems.

Investing in scientific research, even the things that don’t appear to offer an immediate practical application, is the important key to progress.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Remember when there were headlines about findings of fossil bacteria on Mars? Same thing - this planet is full of live and then the media gets off on fossil bacteria on Mars....go figure!

They found fossil bacteria on Mars? I must have missed that. The last I heard was the methane detected last year that could indicate life, but could also be geologic, and the Martian meterioite discovered in the 80’s that has microscopic structures that could indicate life – but could also not.

Anyway, finding life outside of our home world is a big deal to most people, as is exploring our surroundings. Fair enough though that some people don’t care very much. Personally I just feel that exploring the unknown through leading science (even if it costs $ to do so) is a noble pursuit, while the big $ we waste on some things, like convenience for ourselves and killing for our neighbours, is a disgusting waste.


But back to life on Mars for a sec..
Hmm, wouldn’t it be interesting if it were proven that Earth life originated on Mars instead of here?
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Unread postby Doly » Tue 05 Jul 2005, 06:19:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '
')They found fossil bacteria on Mars? I must have missed that. The last I heard was the methane detected last year that could indicate life, but could also be geologic, and the Martian meterioite discovered in the 80’s that has microscopic structures that could indicate life – but could also not.


Well, among the microscopic structures were little things that could be fossil bacteria. It was never conclusively proved that they were.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '
')Hmm, wouldn’t it be interesting if it were proven that Earth life originated on Mars instead of here?


I don't see that anything that could happen on Mars in the distant past couldn't have happened on Earth as well.
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Unread postby aldente » Tue 05 Jul 2005, 23:13:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'T')hey found fossil bacteria on Mars? I must have missed that.

First of all apologies for my previous rather coarse lingo. I changed my viewpoint after all.

In regards to fossil bacteria I read a very informative book published in the 1970's back home in Germany where the author made a very convincing point that evolution takes place in a lot of places but only in a few exceptionally supportive enviroments can make it past the bacterial level (our planet is such a place). It seemed quite conclusive to me as a young boy and hence with this mindset I walk though live.

And now I start getting on the trip.... everything gets wide.... soo wide....


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Unread postby CrudeAwakening » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 01:54:52

I mentioned peak oil to a friend of mine and he scoffed, saying that we'd be much better off investing in technology to shoot down rogue asteroids which are about to destroy our civilisation.

Some people have a gift of imagining the improbable and ignoring what's staring them in the face.
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Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 02:37:28

Fred Hoyle. Panspermia theory.
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Unread postby Omnitir » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 04:53:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I mentioned peak oil to a friend of mine and he scoffed, saying that we'd be much better off investing in technology to shoot down rogue asteroids which are about to destroy our civilisation.

Some people have a gift of imagining the improbable and ignoring what's staring them in the face.



True, most people seem to be able to ignore the oil issue so easily..

But your friend did have a point. Generally speaking, humanity really doesn’t appreciate the immense danger that asteroids offer. There is virtually an infinite number of Earth shattering rocks zipping around our solar system. By far most of them go completely unnoticed by anyone, but of the relative few that have been spotted we have been able to work out their orbits, and there are quite a few possible collisions or near misses with the Earth in the next few years/decades.

CrudeAwakening, speaking of ignoring and of the improbable..;
It is a statistical certainty that a large asteroid will hit Earth in the future. It is only a matter of when. Statistically speaking, the when is about now, well actually a few million years ago…

And these are not the smallish rocks that frequently hit the Earth and cause moderate damage. These are civilisation-destroying things.

It’s a scary thought – sometime late 21st century perhaps, we might be getting by in our now familiar low powered world without oil, getting comfortable with the results of all the effort and turmoil that the people of the previous century went through. Things might finally be looking good for the future of humanity, when BANG! – without warning a large rock from the sky causes a blast wave that engulfs the world. Days later less then 1% of life on Earth remains. Anything bigger then a small field mouse is extinct.

And there won’t be anybody around to regret not developing asteroid detection and collision avoidance technology.



Albente -> No worries mate, it’s cool. :)
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Unread postby Doly » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 05:07:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '
')It’s a scary thought – sometime late 21st century perhaps, we might be getting by in our now familiar low powered world without oil, getting comfortable with the results of all the effort and turmoil that the people of the previous century went through. Things might finally be looking good for the future of humanity, when BANG! – without warning a large rock from the sky causes a blast wave that engulfs the world. Days later less then 1% of life on Earth remains. Anything bigger then a small field mouse is extinct.

And there won’t be anybody around to regret not developing asteroid detection and collision avoidance technology.


You can't really live your life trying to avoid all possible accidents. You avoid those that look the most dangerous, and ignore the rest. If we get to the point that asteroids look among the most dangerous threats to humanity, we'll build the anti-asteroid system.
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Unread postby Omnitir » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 17:33:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou can't really live your life trying to avoid all possible accidents.


No, but you’d think people would try to plan for the accidents that are guaranteed to happen. Over the long term, asteroid collision is the greatest threat to humanity. If we don’t develop technology to avoid collisions, then humanity will certainly be destroyed (or at least devestated) at some point, guaranteed. It really is just a matter of when.

But people consider the odds are in their favour, so no one worries about it. They are right of course; you’ve got about the same chance of winning a big lottery as everyone getting annihilated by an asteroid. Though most people consider that to be good odds, and are willing to spend a few dollars a week on lottery tickets…

I just hope our number doesn’t come up. :cry:
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 20:17:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o, but you’d think people would try to plan for the accidents that are guaranteed to happen. Over the long term, asteroid collision is the greatest threat to humanity. If we don’t develop technology to avoid collisions, then humanity will certainly be destroyed (or at least devestated) at some point, guaranteed. It really is just a matter of when.


PO is the accident that none thought possible, or it was something far in the future
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')But people consider the odds are in their favour, so no one worries about it. They are right of course; you’ve got about the same chance of winning a big lottery as everyone getting annihilated by an asteroid. Though most people consider that to be good odds, and are willing to spend a few dollars a week on lottery tickets…

The correct way to reason in situations of uncertainty is to look at how probable an event is and its consequences.
I guess this argument satisfies building the asteroid collision system and even playing lottery games 8O
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Unread postby aldente » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 22:43:15

How does an oil platform actually look like ?
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