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General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Sun 31 Jan 2021, 14:36:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', 'H')ow well are these selling in the marketplace?


Unmotorized velomobiles have waiting lists up to a year long with backlogged orders.

The companies building them are small and are of limited capital, and the vehicles are hand-built, which keeps the labor cost high. The materials cost to build one is much lower than a car or motorcycle, or even a motorized scooter or moped. Hundreds of hours of labor go into each one.

This is also in a market where the vast majority of the population doesn't even know these vehicles exist, and where they currently cost into the low five figures. There's no telling what would happen if these became part of mainstream knowledge, and these types of vehicles saw mass production reduce their cost to between $1,000-2,000 USD. One would then only need $1,000-2,000 in EV components to turn one into something that could perform like and get range similar to a modern electric car. I've got less than $1,000 of EV components in mine, including the batteries that I'm using to build a pack that is not yet complete. One could also use a small 49cc ICE in one and get about 1,000+ mpg @ 30 mph if the aerodynamics are on par with typical examples on the market(eg. Quest, Strada, DF, ect.).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')ltimately the world's electrified transport buildout isn't likely to be home built pedal power. In part because the cost difference between liquid fuels and kWh allows less efficient but fully functional and very normal cage-like EVs doesn't increase enough for folks to go lightweight and pedal powerlike.


All true, but this is a possible means towards keeping the cost of an electric vehicle with car-like functionality down in cost to where it is an order of magnitude cheaper than a car. Lots of "ifs" have to happen first, none of them relating to technology.

I could see such a vehicle, if it became comparable in purchase price to a moped or scooter, becoming popular in poorer nations. If some of the worst doom-porn predictions come to pass, it could also become popular in wealthier nations due to its almost-free operating cost. Considering my generation generally can't afford cars here in the U.S., such a thing also has potential to catch on on that merit alone as well.

In my case, I built it to be an "off grid" vehicle that isn't plagued by license/registration/title/tag/insurance requirements and their associated expenses. And it has no such thing as range anxiety. Just today, I was doing 50 mph down a hill and cruised along on flat ground at 30 mph for about 2 miles with the motor shut off. Imagine what it would do if I had one-quarter of the aerodynamic drag.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')oday during some steady state cruising at around 30-35 mph I was doing about 8 miles/kwh? Jumped out on the 4 lane, into a headwind and climbing in elevation, and was lucky to get 1 mile/kwh.


That's pretty good. I expect my electric Triumph GT6 to get similar economy at 60 mph to your Leaf at 30-35 mph, mainly because of a focus on drag reduction. I have to find the money to finish it... if I can even manage to save my mom's house first. It's still going to be a pig compared to my velomobile.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 31 Jan 2021, 15:20:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', 'H')ow well are these selling in the marketplace?


Unmotorized velomobiles have waiting lists up to a year long with backlogged orders.


So that makes demand higher than supply.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tor_Toecutter', '
')Hundreds of hours of labor go into each one.

This is also in a market where the vast majority of the population doesn't even know these vehicles exist, and where they currently cost into the low five figures.


Well, I paid less than 5 figures for my used Leaf, which might explain why there are 3 of them on my block (as well as a newer Volt and a Tesla X) but I haven't even seen so much as a electrified bicycle.

So are sales worldwide or US wide 10 units/year? Or 1 million?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')There's no telling what would happen if these became part of mainstream knowledge, and these types of vehicles saw mass production reduce their cost to between $1,000-2,000 USD.


No telling indeed. Could be 5.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')ltimately the world's electrified transport buildout isn't likely to be home built pedal power. In part because the cost difference between liquid fuels and kWh allows less efficient but fully functional and very normal cage-like EVs doesn't increase enough for folks to go lightweight and pedal powerlike.


All true, but this is a possible means towards keeping the cost of an electric vehicle with car-like functionality down in cost to where it is an order of magnitude cheaper than a car.


Order of magnitude cheaper than my Leaf is about $750. The trick might be what level of build a hobbyist is willing to take on, and whether or not A/C and being able to run interstate/beltway speeds are a requirement.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_ToeCutter', '
')Lots of "ifs" have to happen first, none of them relating to technology.


Electric cars were once more common than ICE powered ones. It has never been about technology, but more convenience, range, power output, and all those intangibles that play out in the marketplace. Which to date have seen Tesla models and Leafs and Volts and Bolts and i3's at a far higher cost than you have been mentioning stomping flat the idea that people want pedal powered and add on helper electric power.

FIA Formula E would seem to be a better selling point for the kind of electric use folks want rather than helping them along by, dare I say it, sweating at the same time.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', ' ')
If some of the worst doom-porn predictions come to pass, it could also become popular in wealthier nations due to its almost-free operating cost.


Sure, if doomer porn predictions come to pass. And then MZBs will have their Harleys, will run down the pedal power people, and eat them. Cost not being the main issue in MZB doom-porn scenarios, but survival.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')Considering my generation generally can't afford cars here in the U.S., such a thing also has potential to catch on on that merit alone as well.


I'm not sure what your generation is, but if my kids can afford cars here in the US, what generation are you a part of that can't? I imagine every living generation in the US can afford cars, assuming it isn't just economic conditions in general holding someone back, which is economic in nature, and not generational.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_ToeCutter', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')oday during some steady state cruising at around 30-35 mph I was doing about 8 miles/kwh? Jumped out on the 4 lane, into a headwind and climbing in elevation, and was lucky to get 1 mile/kwh.

That's pretty good. I expect my electric Triumph GT6 to get similar economy at 60 mph to your Leaf at 30-35 mph, mainly because of a focus on drag reduction. I have to find the money to finish it... if I can even manage to save my mom's house first. It's still going to be a pig compared to my velomobile.

The average in my first 100 miles of ownership, according to the computer has been 3.4 mile/kWh. On my other partial EV, I had always used 4 mile/kWh as a working assumption but that is more of a back of the envelope number, as it doesn't have the substantial control panel and instruments to see this value in real time. Nowadays, that cage sits waiting for interstate trips, where I use it more than a traditional hybrid than an around town EV. The Leaf has taken over all commuting/local shopping tasks and the other EV is stored with the motorcycles until the next cross country event comes up.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Mon 01 Feb 2021, 01:55:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', '
')
Well, I paid less than 5 figures for my used Leaf, which might explain why there are 3 of them on my block (as well as a newer Volt and a Tesla X) but I haven't even seen so much as a electrified bicycle.

So are sales worldwide or US wide 10 units/year? Or 1 million?


Sales are in the tens to a few hundred per year, for each make and model. They are being produced at capacity.

There is potential for demand to explode to 1000x or more, if they were to become a few tenths of one percent of the vehicle market. If you had the chance to ride one, you'd know why.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')rder of magnitude cheaper than my Leaf is about $750. The trick might be what level of build a hobbyist is willing to take on, and whether or not A/C and being able to run interstate/beltway speeds are a requirement.


Your Leaf was also purchased used, not new. Currently, there is such a high demand for these unmotorized vehicles called velomobiles that used ones retain roughly 100% of their new sales price in market value.

Now imagine a CAR designed with the same aerodynamics, form factor, and similar mass, but designed with safety in mind. Cost could go way down over a typical car, simply because of the reduced materials costs. NRE costs can be spread over a production run and become more marginal as volume increases.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')lectric cars were once more common than ICE powered ones. It has never been about technology, but more convenience, range, power output, and all those intangibles that play out in the marketplace.


All of which were influenced by the state of the technology. The technology became "good enough" for the mass market about 25 years ago, but it was Tesla that decided to take the risk by daring to deviate from the rest of the overly conservative auto industry and got us a deliverable product, about 15 years after the technology was ready. And lo and behold, the pent-up unmet demand for it was massive, and now the rest of the auto industry is trying to catch up.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hich to date have seen Tesla models and Leafs and Volts and Bolts and i3's at a far higher cost than you have been mentioning stomping flat the idea that people want pedal powered and add on helper electric power.


There is no reason one couldn't remove the bicycle drivetrain, and substitute an accelerator and brake pedal in its place. The market has proven itself reactionary, not radical. The idea I'm discussing has yet to even be given a chance. If given a chance, it will either sink or swim. But given the benefits, it's certainly worth an attempt, IMO.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ure, if doomer porn predictions come to pass. And then MZBs will have their Harleys, will run down the pedal power people, and eat them. Cost not being the main issue in MZB doom-porn scenarios, but survival.

If I had the budget, I could make mine do 0-60 mph in under 4 seconds and reach over 100 mph, AND retain dynamic stability and mechanical reliability at that speed all while weighing less than 100 lbs. But this economy has been so screwed up that I've been washing dishes with my electrical engineering degree, and when engineering firms offer me $12/hr and I tell them I used to make $30/hr for work with less responsibilities and mention the position on the job site was advertised as paying $50/hr as well as pointing out the average wage for these positions is stated to be around $50/hr according to the statistics, and pointing out I met all the qualifications for the position, they call me a "typical entitled millennial". I have a long list of references whom I used to be employed by that can attest to my competence. I'm not a shit for brains. I just built a 3,000+ mpg "car" on a shoestring budget that I'm currently using on a daily basis for transportation.

If I knew I was going to be treated this way, I'd have dropped out of high school and sold dope, instead of slogging my way through college to get a permission slip to work called a degree and taking out substantial student debt when my scholarships didn't increase with my tuition fees given that what started as almost a full ride turned into crippling debt upon graduation(I'd have had to have been HS Valedictorian to have done better), and probably have been much better off under the condition I never got caught selling said dope. I paid the debt off by making $60k/yr, living in the ghetto with roommates, and riding bicycles everywhere to save money, while my upper middle class peers who were shit for brains got handed everything and failed upwards.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m not sure what your generation is, but if my kids can afford cars here in the US, what generation are you a part of that can't? I imagine every living generation in the US can afford cars, assuming it isn't just economic conditions in general holding someone back, which is economic in nature, and not generational.

https://www.alternet.org/2014/10/millennials-arent-cheap-theyre-broke/

Most people in my age range have used cars, if they have a car at all. The new car market is mostly driven by the wealthiest 20% of the population. Then there's the issue of debt: debt is taken because people really can't afford it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he average in my first 100 miles of ownership, according to the computer has been 3.4 mile/kWh.

That sounds about right for an EV of relatively low curb weight compared to the average new car with middling aerodynamics. It's possible to design a car with all the same utility and safety that uses less than 1/2 the energy per mile, getting twice as much range or more on the same battery pack for the same cost. But planned obsolescence still dominates the auto industry's design language, unfortunately. If I ever get a foothold in, I'd like to change that.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 01 Feb 2021, 10:19:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', '
')So are sales worldwide or US wide 10 units/year? Or 1 million?

Sales are in the tens to a few hundred per year, for each make and model. They are being produced at capacity.

There is potential for demand to explode to 1000x or more, if they were to become a few tenths of one percent of the vehicle market. If you had the chance to ride one, you'd know why.


The same goes for EVs in general. The first i3 I ever took for a spin was just a wonderful ride. The Leaf is quite a bit more pedestrian, and I bought it to be just that. I didn't want German car repair drama or prices, I just want to plug it in, run around in it, plug it in again, and have it do that until the battery wears out.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')If I had the budget, I could make mine do 0-60 mph in under 4 seconds and reach over 100 mph, AND retain dynamic stability and mechanical reliability at that speed all while weighing less than 100 lbs.


How would it do in a crash at 100mph against a run of the mill American SUV?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')I paid the debt off by making $60k/yr, living in the ghetto with roommates, and riding bicycles everywhere to save money, while my upper middle class peers who were shit for brains got handed everything and failed upwards.


Why weren't you able to fail upwards the same as them? As you say, with "shit for brains", in order to fail upwards they had to have something going for them. A career path in finance instead of engineering? Captain of the football team personalities? Connections?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m not sure what your generation is, but if my kids can afford cars here in the US, what generation are you a part of that can't? I imagine every living generation in the US can afford cars, assuming it isn't just economic conditions in general holding someone back, which is economic in nature, and not generational.

https://www.alternet.org/2014/10/millennials-arent-cheap-theyre-broke/

The article basis it's premise on most millennials not having college educations. Obviously, that isn't your situation.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')Most people in my age range have used cars, if they have a car at all. The new car market is mostly driven by the wealthiest 20% of the population. Then there's the issue of debt: debt is taken because people really can't afford it.


I drive used cars. It hardly requires wealth to decide that with auto depreciation, there are often some good deals out there when buying used, lightly or otherwise.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he average in my first 100 miles of ownership, according to the computer has been 3.4 mile/kWh.

That sounds about right for an EV of relatively low curb weight compared to the average new car with middling aerodynamics. It's possible to design a car with all the same utility and safety that uses less than 1/2 the energy per mile, getting twice as much range or more on the same battery pack for the same cost. But planned obsolescence still dominates the auto industry's design language, unfortunately. If I ever get a foothold in, I'd like to change that.

A tough goal to set in a market specializing in disposable everything. Elon seems to be doing pretty well along these lines, headed towards making cars last longer than their owners will want to keep them.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Sun 07 Feb 2021, 01:50:04

I finally got some pics:

Image
Image

More pics and info here:

https://peakoil.com/forums/velomobiles-the-most-efficient-form-of-individual-transport-t74872.html#p1466627

Lifetime energy consumption average thus far with about 750 miles as an EV is 9 wh/mile. This is generally cruising at 30-35 mph on flat ground in what has been thus far cold weather. As temperatures rise, air density and rolling resistance of the tires will decrease.

The concept is proven, even if this vehicle isn't what I'd consider safe. However, if I had the resources, I could build one that is crashworthy, stable/reliable at freeway speeds, with adjustable ergonomics(seats/steering/boom/ect) to fit a wide range of riders, and with greatly improved aerodynamics to cut energy consumption and extend range further.

I think a 100+ mile range @ 70 mph in a sub 100 lb vehicle with sufficiently durable mechanicals/tires to reach and maintain triple digit speeds is doable.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 07 Feb 2021, 10:59:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', 'I') finally got some pics:

Image
Image

I think a 100+ mile range @ 70 mph in a sub 100 lb vehicle with sufficiently durable mechanicals/tires to reach and maintain triple digit speeds is doable.


I have to admit, that thing looks cooler than crud. Any high-viz/lighting plans so its lack of height doesn't get it lost to a motorists vision as they come zipping by and bump it off the road? How does it handle the airflow from passing cars?
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 07 Feb 2021, 11:14:00

Toe,

I have never had the passion you exhibit. I know another gentleman similar to you, he is working with boat auto pilots. You both sacrifice a lit to your dream. Follow your muse as they say.


Good for you!

I wish you luck with this.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 07 Feb 2021, 13:40:31

Alaska has the highest COVID vaccination rate in the US.

This is remarkable when you consider that most of Alaska has no roads and many people live in small isolated settlements or native villages that can only be reached by plane And the weather is about the worst on earth......we've got predictions of more than 50 below zero early next week (-100+ when you include wind chill).

But in spite of everything the feds and the state are doing a really really good job of getting everyone vaccinated up here in Alaska.

I got my second dose yesterday.

My shoulder is quite sore today, but I feel so darn good about being vaccinated. It takes about another 30 days for the vaccine to fully take effect, but for the first time in almost a year I feel good about the future again. I feel like I can plan on doing various things in the future and maybe they will actually happen.

I even feel like the world is going to get through the COVID pandemic and someday I will be able to travel again.

Whats the point of living through the end of the world if we can't travel and go see what is happening around the world as the climate changes.

I want to see it happen. I want to see cities being flood and giant storms wiping out whole countries, and tens of millions of climate refugees fleeing their collapsing S-hole 3rd world countries and stampeding into and swamping the EU and the USA. And now, thanks to being vaccinated, I feel like I'm going to get the watch the BIG SHOW of climate change for a bit longer.

And I'm really happy about it.

Image
Alaska has the highest vaccination rate of any US state.

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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby aadbrd » Sun 07 Feb 2021, 14:05:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')I want to see it happen.


Some people just want to watch the world burn.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 07 Feb 2021, 17:54:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aadbrd', 'S')ome people just want to watch the world burn.


Perhaps you want to watch the world to burn, but I certainly don't

I don't want the world to be destroyed by global warming..... but I think the scientific data is clear that more global warming is inevitable.

AND I don't think our political leaders, here in the US and in other countries, have the will to do what it takes to stop global warming.

And if global warming is going to happen, I want to see how it proceeds.

I was in Antarctica just before the COVID pandemic began, and seeing the disintegration of the ice shelves and the disruption of the penguin colonies due to global warming was amazing. The huge fires in Australia, Siberia, and North America last summer were horribly amazing. The huge hurricanes in the Caribbean and record size typhoons in the Pacific are amazing.

Who knows what will happen next? Or what stupid things our politicians will say about it as they try to excuse their inaction.

In today's newspaper Angus King, the "independent" Senator from Maine who caucuses with the Ds is quoted saying that global warming will be good because the Arctic Ocean is melting and we are gaining a "new Ocean"......Wow......there's a man who is a fool---he really doesn't understand that earth's entire climate regime is changing in rapid and unknown ways as the Arctic Ocean becomes progressively ice free. And its not just him......the politicians are mostly a supremely ignorant group when it comes to science and they have completely and totally failed to take needed steps to stop global warming.

So global warming here we come.

Who would want miss the chance to see just how such a horrible and unprecedented series of events proceeds?

Image
There used to be a poster at this site who claimed that global warming was a hoax and Antarctica was gaining mass......but now the data are clear that Antarctica is losing mass. Thats why observing the progress of global warming is so interesting....the longer we observe, the more interesting phenomena we observe due to global warming, and the more scientific data we have to understand how global warming is affecting the planet

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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 09 Feb 2021, 19:16:07

Nice day, working on some outside projects on the boat.

From the deck I saw an otter, a blue bird and a bald eagle.

Kinda cool.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 10 Feb 2021, 09:58:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', 'I') finally got some pics:

Image


Yo Toe, got some more numbers for you.

12 mile one-way trip, mixed suburbs on 2 lane secondary (35-45 mph speed limit) and a 4 mile stretch of interstate. Slight gain in elevation starting with a full charge. No heating systems employed. 4.9 miles/kWh. Same trip in reverse, same general traffic and wind conditions. 4.1 miles/kWH. For the life of me I haven't been able to figure out why the more downhill trip was less efficient. Battery discharge efficiency is less as it gets into a more discharged state? Wind speed was nil that afternoon, I made sure nothing changed in the heating/cooling or speeds, same route, as identical as I could make it, just a routine out and back.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby NovaVeles » Fri 12 Feb 2021, 19:11:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')In today's newspaper Angus King, the "independent" Senator from Maine who caucuses with the Ds is quoted saying that global warming will be good because the Arctic Ocean is melting and we are gaining a "new Ocean"......Wow......there's a man who is a fool


That is a new level of stupid. Maybe he was talking about new shipping routes in a ham fisted way but I am being a too charitable on that one. Regardless of the supposed benefits, the losses are far greater,
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 17 Feb 2021, 13:39:24

Got my second shot Monday. Slight fever that night and felt down Tues. am but all good now. They have stopped giving vaccine to the general population so no idea when the Wife will get her shots.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Sat 20 Feb 2021, 00:54:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', '
')
Yo Toe, got some more numbers for you.

12 mile one-way trip, mixed suburbs on 2 lane secondary (35-45 mph speed limit) and a 4 mile stretch of interstate. Slight gain in elevation starting with a full charge. No heating systems employed. 4.9 miles/kWh. Same trip in reverse, same general traffic and wind conditions. 4.1 miles/kWH. For the life of me I haven't been able to figure out why the more downhill trip was less efficient.


Any idea how many stops you had each way? What about the use of regenerative braking? Was the road surface consistent in each direction? Did the car start the trip in a heated garage, and then rest in the cold mid-way before making it back? Did any of your tires have an unexpected loss in pressure? Perhaps a wheel bearing seized or developed a flaw or some other mechanical failure occurred? There are a lot of factors that could cause this. Driving style could even have subconsciously been changed, although to tell you'd have had to have some sort of data logger.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby careinke » Sat 20 Feb 2021, 03:05:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'N')ice day, working on some outside projects on the boat.

From the deck I saw an otter, a blue bird and a bald eagle.

Kinda cool.


Kill the otter, make a nice pair of gloves, otters decimate clam beds. I know from recent experience.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 20 Feb 2021, 10:12:15

Fresh water.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 20 Feb 2021, 11:42:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', '
')
Yo Toe, got some more numbers for you.

12 mile one-way trip, mixed suburbs on 2 lane secondary (35-45 mph speed limit) and a 4 mile stretch of interstate. Slight gain in elevation starting with a full charge. No heating systems employed. 4.9 miles/kWh. Same trip in reverse, same general traffic and wind conditions. 4.1 miles/kWH. For the life of me I haven't been able to figure out why the more downhill trip was less efficient.


Any idea how many stops you had each way?


Well, other than the 4 miles on interstate, it was 1 out of every 3 lights, say? And that would be have been maybe 10-25 stops?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_ToeCutter', '
')What about the use of regenerative braking? Was the road surface consistent in each direction? Did the car start the trip in a heated garage, and then rest in the cold mid-way before making it back?


Full regenerative braking that was available was used. It increases to a higher level as battery SOC decreases. Road surface was consistent across entire trip. Trip started in a non-heated garage, at a temperature around 40F. Rest at the mid-point of the trip was no more than 5 minutes, outside in 45F temperatures.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_ToeCutter', '
')Did any of your tires have an unexpected loss in pressure? Perhaps a wheel bearing seized or developed a flaw or some other mechanical failure occurred? There are a lot of factors that could cause this. Driving style could even have subconsciously been changed, although to tell you'd have had to have some sort of data logger.


No mechanical issues.

It is an easy to repeat trip (there is a pawnshop at the far side which occasionally has firearms I am interested in) so maybe I'll just do it again in similar weather, and then later in the year as it becomes warmer to see if it is repeatable, and if the numbers change.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Sat 20 Feb 2021, 15:33:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', 'I') have to admit, that thing looks cooler than crud. Any high-viz/lighting plans so its lack of height doesn't get it lost to a motorists vision as they come zipping by and bump it off the road? How does it handle the airflow from passing cars?


I am working on a system for turn signals, brake lights, permanent headlight, and running lights. I still have to get the money together for everything.

A tractor trailer can pass it at 45 mph without much drama. Passing cars don't have any noticeable effect. It takes 40+ mph direct side winds to require careful attention to steering input while going down the road at 40+ mph.

If I had access to CFD software that gave me some actual numbers to work with, and not merely a graphical representation, I'd be able to redesign it to be greatly more stable AND efficient. The eventual idea is to make an insanely light weight one-seater sports car off of this idea, no bicycle pedals present, that can top out at 100+ mph and accelerate like a fast motorcycle(0-60 mph < 3 seconds), and for the platform to be multimodal to allow a pedal-only bicycle/velomobile version as well as an electric bicycle/velomobile version and high performance sports car/ebike hybrid to expand potential volume and possibly drive down cost. EVs that get ~20 Wh/mi @ 70 mph are very much possible. This also allows more range for less battery cost. Such a thing wouldn't need much more than a 2 kWh battery pack to have a "good enough" range at highway speeds. With the best currently battery tech available off the shelf hovering around 280 Wh/kg, an entire battery pack including case/BMS/thermal management wouldn't need to be more than 20 lbs or cost more than $400 in mass production volume, and it would last hundreds of thousands of miles. The idea would be to keep the materials cost low and the reliability and efficiency high to deliver the cheapest possible operating cost on a vehicle that at first glance appears wildly impractical and fun.

Once solid state batteries with specific capacities of 600+ wh/kg become available, that same 20 lbs of pack including case/BMS/thermal management, we're looking at a 4-4.5 kWh pack for such a thing and giving it a 250-300 mile range at 70 mph. For a low performance legal ebike version that cruises @ 30 mph, with some rider pedaling, this could be 1,000+ miles range, or allow a greatly reduced battery pack size.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', '
')
Well, other than the 4 miles on interstate, it was 1 out of every 3 lights, say? And that would be have been maybe 10-25 stops?

Full regenerative braking that was available was used.


That is most likely the cost for the variance in consumption. You lose a lot of built-up kinetic energy with each stop and regen is at best going to be about 40% efficient at recapture at some instantaneous point, but in reality, closer to 10% overall, and highly variable depending upon the way it is used and the motor/inverter's operating point. When there are stops, it is also hard to get consistent data.

Do this trip and record your data repeatedly. You'll start to get a useful average for each direction after at least 3 tests in each direction.
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Re: Happy Talk

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 27 Feb 2021, 18:29:20

Nice warm day today.

The frogs are going nutz.

Young love!!
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