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Re: Cyborg with rat brain comes to life!!

Unread postby Carlhole » Sat 16 Aug 2008, 10:06:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'W')e have forgotten the keys to the kingdom. :razz:


HA! If they were talking about artificially grown liver cells (which have also been in the news lately), you wouldn't be blathering on about "rat heart" or "rat soul". :lol:

Curiosity and exploration is at the core of what it means to be human. Why should a few rat cells stand in the way? Religion and ideas about their being a "soul" or any sort of non-physical universe dumb people down incredibly. If there is a non-physical reality other than that consisting of Energy, Matter, Space, or Time prove it or STFU.
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Re: Cyborg with rat brain comes to life!!

Unread postby jbrovont » Sat 16 Aug 2008, 10:12:52

Image
Can I get a Hura? I'm ready for my 'upgrade.'

My inner geeks thinks this is awesome. Unfortunately, I'm sure the first thing they'll do is weaponize it. :/
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Re: Cyborg with rat brain comes to life!!

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 16 Aug 2008, 10:12:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'W')e have forgotten the keys to the kingdom. :razz:


HA! If they were talking about artificially grown liver cells (which have also been in the news lately), you wouldn't be blathering on about "rat heart" or "rat soul". :lol:

Curiosity and exploration is at the core of what it means to be human. Why should a few rat cells stand in the way? Religion and ideas about their being a "soul" or any sort of non-physical universe dumb people down incredibly. If there is a non-physical reality other than that consisting of Energy, Matter, Space, or Time prove it or STFU.

[url=http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/august/brew.htm] Zulu traditional healers' brew works
[/url]
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Re: Cyborg with rat brain comes to life!!

Unread postby Carlhole » Sat 16 Aug 2008, 10:28:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbrovont', 'U')nfortunately, I'm sure the first thing they'll do is weaponize it. :/


I think the first thing they'll do with it is to guide an automobile. Think about it. What more perfect neuron complex to guide a car around LA freeways than a rat brain?

You would only have to communicate destination properly and provide the thing with plenty of memory and it would work great.

Of course, the idea behind the experiment is to discover how neurons grow and differentiate to perform various information processing tasks. what algorithms are used, etc. Once those things are learnt, engineers could duplicate them in electronics. Why screw around with nutrients and antibiotics?

Besides you wouldn't want your nifty, rat-brained, self-driving car to mount every Civic it sneaks up on.
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Re: Cyborg with rat brain comes to life!!

Unread postby lper100km » Sat 16 Aug 2008, 18:02:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('miles329', '
')
That's pretty scary, really don't like them using animals like that. Think it's pretty immoral and gross.


I suspect that at some future time, neuron cell lattices will be genetically engineered and be as common as silicon chip wafers. Don’t know how they would be kept alive though.

I remember some comic character in the UK in the ‘40s called Treens, whose leader was a disembodied green head peering from an oversized goldfish bowl, presumably soused in a nutrient solution. Watch the comic section for tips on how our future will be! They’re 60 years ahead of us.
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Re: Cyborg with rat brain comes to life!!

Unread postby lotrfan55345 » Sun 17 Aug 2008, 19:57:59

I want a rat brain computer!
I'm sure it could push a gigaflop
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Re: Cyborg with rat brain comes to life!!

Unread postby outcast » Mon 18 Aug 2008, 11:55:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')f course, the idea behind the experiment is to discover how neurons grow and differentiate to perform various information processing tasks. what algorithms are used, etc. Once those things are learnt, engineers could duplicate them in electronics. Why screw around with nutrients and antibiotics?

I think this was more of a proof of concept, how neural tissue can interface and control electronics, and how a mind machine interface could work. The applications could include such things as true artificial limbs, human augmentation, neural interface, and probably so much more.
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Re: Cyborg with rat brain comes to life!!

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 18 Aug 2008, 15:18:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('outcast', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')f course, the idea behind the experiment is to discover how neurons grow and differentiate to perform various information processing tasks. what algorithms are used, etc. Once those things are learnt, engineers could duplicate them in electronics. Why screw around with nutrients and antibiotics?
I think this was more of a proof of concept, how neural tissue can interface and control electronics, and how a mind machine interface could work. The applications could include such things as true artificial limbs, human augmentation, neural interface, and probably so much more.

No... Proof-of-concept has already been shown... several years ago. Wetware-hardware interfaces have been successful in several completely different approaches.

From the article:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')The purpose is to figure out how memories are actually stored in a biological brain," said Kevin Warwick, a professor at the University of Reading and one of the robot's principle architects.

In other experiments of this kind in which neurons are grown over a special chip, the purpose has been to figure out how the neurons process information to achieve fine motor control and things like that.
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The Singularity Summit 2008

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 29 Aug 2008, 23:25:06

The Singularity Summit 2008
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SS08', '[')b]The Singularity Summit is the premier dialog on the Singularity.
The first Singularity Summit was held at Stanford in 2006 to further understanding and discussion about the Singularity concept and the future of human technological progress. It was founded as a venue for leading thinkers to explore the subject, whether scientist, enthusiast, or skeptic.

Since 2006, the scope of this dialog has expanded dramatically. In 2008, the Singularity has now entered mainstream consideration. IEEE Spectrum, a sober and mainstream technology publication, issued a special report on the Singularity; and Intel CTO Justin Rattner remarked that "We're making steady progress toward the singularity" during his keynote to 2,000 people at Intel Developer Forum. What was once a relatively unknown concept is now being discussed in corporate board rooms.

We invite you to join our extraordinary group of visionaries in business, science, technology, design, and the arts, as our community explores this exciting topic. Your participation offers a world of powerful ideas, a unique networking opportunity, and access to an exclusive directory of your peers.

Intel CTO predicts Singularity by 2048
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hile at Intel Developer Forum in San Francisco (Aug-08), I had the pleasure of watching, from the front row no less, Intel CTO Justin Rattner explain and support the concept of the technological singularity. This is big. I think more high level executives will now discuss this subject without fear of losing their jobs.

Intel predicts singularity by 2048: Intel’s chief technology officer, Justin Rattner, had his eye firmly fixed on the future at the Intel Developer Forum in San Francisco.

In his closing keynote speech, Rattner said that Ray Kurzweil’s concept of “the singularity,” a point when human and artificial intelligence merges to create something bigger than itself, could be just 40 years away.

Intel touts progress toward intelligent computers: At the Intel Developer Forum, Intel Chief Technology Officer Justin Rattner showed off a number of technologies in computing, robotics, and communication that he cited as evidence that Ray Kurzweil’s “singularity,” when machine intelligence surpasses human intelligence, is impending.

“We’re making steady progress toward Ray Kurzweil’s singularity,” Rattner said.

You know, The Singularity is another subject here at PO.com that gets a very poor reception. But I think you guys are wrong, wrong, wrong about it. Pretty soon, there is going to be some genuine progress made toward duplicating Nature's basic neuronal basis for intelligence. Some aspects of it may include the existing paradigm of microprocessors and software; others may leap to a wholly new artificial neuron-based matrix. Other approaches may use adapted biology interfaced with advanced microelectronics.

It will start small of course. But once the "mustard seed" of understanding is there, the whole phenomenon of AI will just take off exponentially. There is simply no quality or thing in the universe which is more valuable to human beings than intelligence - the ability to conceptualize, learn, associate, combine and create new ideas.

The Neo-Luddites among us here seem to regard the already extant functioning of insect, animal and human neurology as so utterly complex as to be completely unapproachable to study and duplication. But this is a thesis that they cling to like a religious doctrine.

Face it. Neuroscience will advance. The basis for consciousness will reveal itself. A limited machine intelligence will soon exist. And when that milestone is reached, it is only a step or two away from a sudden explosion of intelligence. The whole skin of the Earth will become analogous to the brain's neocortex.
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Re: The Singularity Summit 2008

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 30 Aug 2008, 02:30:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'F')ace it. Neuroscience will advance. The basis for consciousness will reveal itself. A limited machine intelligence will soon exist. And when that milestone is reached, it is only a step or two away from a sudden explosion of intelligence. The whole skin of the Earth will become analogous to the brain's neocortex.

In 2048 you will observe advanced dieoff, not a singularity.
You will also probably have post atomic war environment too.

Intelligence is meaningless, if you don't have a means to make use of it. Consumerist society is a prerequisite for progress of technology and once it is gone, progress will be gone too.
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Re: The Singularity Summit 2008

Unread postby Carlhole » Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:08:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'F')ace it. Neuroscience will advance. The basis for consciousness will reveal itself. A limited machine intelligence will soon exist. And when that milestone is reached, it is only a step or two away from a sudden explosion of intelligence. The whole skin of the Earth will become analogous to the brain's neocortex.
In 2048 you will observe advanced dieoff, not a singularity. You will also probably have post atomic war environment too. Intelligence is meaningless, if you don't have a means to make use of it. Consumerist society is a prerequisite for progress of technology and once it is gone, progress will be gone too.

A Singularitarian would argue that even if there were a human die-off even up to big numbers lik 70 - 80%, it wouldn't be catastrophic to human society. And in the process, the wrenching change created by the necessity of surviving the cataclysm would only speed the technological progress that is already racing forward. There is no necessary link between human science and consumerism that is known of.

So, in the event human numbers quickly become more reasonable -- BFD! A culling might be scary for an individual to try to live through but it wouldn't be scary for descendents of survivors remembering it via artificial memory (or whatever).
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Re: The Singularity Summit 2008

Unread postby Carlhole » Sat 30 Aug 2008, 04:11:54

IBM's Blue Brain Project

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]The Blue Brain project is the first comprehensive attempt to reverse-engineer the mammalian brain, in order to understand brain function and dysfunction through detailed simulations.

In July 2005, EPFL and IBM announced an exciting new research initiative - a project to create a biologically accurate, functional model of the brain using IBM's Blue Gene supercomputer. Analogous in scope to the Genome Project, the Blue Brain will provide a huge leap in our understanding of brain function and dysfunction and help us explore solutions to intractable problems in mental health and neurological disease.

At the end of 2006, the Blue Brain project had created a model of the basic functional unit of the brain, the neocortical column. At the push of a button, the model could reconstruct biologically accurate neurons based on detailed experimental data, and automatically connect them in a biological manner, a task that involves positioning around 30 million synapses in precise 3D locations.

In November, 2007, the Blue Brain project reached an important milestone and the conclusion of its first Phase, with the announcement of an entirely new data-driven process for creating, validating, and researching the neocortical column.

More detailed information and a glimpse into the future of the Blue Brain Project.


[align=center]Image[/align]
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Re: The Singularity Summit 2008

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 30 Aug 2008, 05:55:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'A') Singularitarian would argue that even if there were a human die-off even up to big numbers lik 70 - 80%, it wouldn't be catastrophic to human society. And in the process, the wrenching change created by the necessity of surviving the cataclysm would only speed the technological progress that is already racing forward. There is no necessary link between human science and consumerism that is known of.

That is correct under presumption that a dieoff would proceed in environment where those doomed ones would curl up and die quietly singing Kumbayah meantime.

In real world however dieoff will take a shape of string of worldwide genocidal wars where technology development centers will become one of primary targets of mass destruction weapons and enemy scientists an important group of those to be exterminated.

Don't you observe that international order is already on the brink of collapse?

It is also a prerequisite of progress for industrial base permitting it to exist and function well. So how are you going to preserve existing industrial base trough coming era of collapse? Again, even if you preserved knowledge but lost all means to exercise it in practice, your knowledge is rendered useless.

RE consumerism and progress:
Without consumerism there is no need to produce advanced items.
No one will need these in sufficiently large quantities to warrant future research.
Infrastructure required for their production and for further R & D will fall into disrepair.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') culling might be scary for an individual to try to live through but it wouldn't be scary for descendents of survivors remembering it via artificial memory (or whatever).

Unfortunately you will run out of time and resources required to maintain industrial infrastructure before you can even think about creating of such entities.
Anyway there is no reason to create these. They would compete for dwindling resources with remaining humans.
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Re: The Singularity Summit 2008

Unread postby evilgenius » Sat 30 Aug 2008, 12:33:23

Yes, the two great challenges facing man in the 21st century are the end of oil and the advent of artificial intelligence. I don't talk much about what I think about artificial intelligence on this site (not all in agreement with Kurzweil), but I do see it as looming. Like the end of oil AI could be a good thing, freeing man, or it could be a curse, destroying our capacity for ethical reasoning via insidious and overwhelming machination.
When it comes down to it, the people will always shout, "Free Barabbas." They love Barabbas. He's one of them. He has the same dreams. He does what they wish they could do. That other guy is more removed, more inscrutable. He makes them think. "Crucify him."
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Re: The Singularity Summit 2008

Unread postby blukatzen » Sat 30 Aug 2008, 13:28:00

I am wondering if the singularity project would consider a human with fully realized DNA (as projected in their genetics) would be a match for their AI project?

Do they think that the AI would enhance human DNA genomes? Or is it needed to "switch on" the ones that are not in current use, the so called "garbage DNA"?

I think a fully functioning human being would blow the AI project out of the water. I think it may be happening sooner than you think. What are your thoughts on this?

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Re: The Singularity Summit 2008

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 30 Aug 2008, 13:46:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'A')nyway there is no reason to create these. They would compete for dwindling resources with remaining humans.

The idea that die off and singularity can coexist is absurd and hardly needs a rebuttal.
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Re: The Singularity Summit 2008

Unread postby blukatzen » Sat 30 Aug 2008, 14:18:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'A')nyway there is no reason to create these. They would compete for dwindling resources with remaining humans.
The idea that die off and singularity can coexist is absurd and hardly needs a rebuttal.

It will co-exist, albeit it will go underground. There have always been those in power, the ultra-rich, who have had their own technology they've been interested in, and it hasn't been until now, this modern society can afford them to dabble and let others know about this more openly. The blueprints, so to speak, are on the table. It's just now we've been connecting the dots in order to see where this is going.
There are probably other "things" existing in labs or under experiment which we in the general public will never know about. Those are the scarier propositions we have to be aware of.
Lots of gene splicing going on now. The die-off will run parallel to the AI and other genetic experiments. It won't be unlike what you will see if you've seen the movie "Children of Men". I believe that scenario to be very accurate where this society will be headed.

Do you ever wonder what all of is for, besides hybridization of species? (don't mean to hijack the thread with the subject matter of hybridization, but just using it as an adjunct to all possibilities of where/how thing deemed "bigger and better" get manifested.) Like the melding of AI and humans.

One thing we have to look at is the Spiritual aspect of what all this implies. It seems the moral and ethical codes have been tossed out the window.
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Re: The Singularity Summit 2008

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 30 Aug 2008, 15:44:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('blukatzen', 'T')here have always been those in power, the ultra-rich, who have had their own technology they've been interested in, and it hasn't been until now, this modern society can afford them to dabble and let others know about this more openly. The blueprints, so to speak, are on the table. It's just now we've been connecting the dots in order to see where this is going.

Got any proof that? And who is "we"?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('blukatzen', 'T')here are probably other "things" existing in labs or under experiment which we in the general public will never know about.

"Probably" isn't a very strong argument. And if the general public never knows about it, how can anyone know it's there? Special reception on your tinfoil hat?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('blukatzen', 'L')ots of gene splicing going on now. The die-off will run parallel to the AI and other genetic experiments. It won't be unlike what you will see if you've seen the movie "Children of Men". I believe that scenario to be very accurate where this society will be headed.

If we can genetically engineer out the 'tragedy of the commons', that would be a good thing.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('blukatzen', 'I')t seems the moral and ethical codes have been tossed out the window.

People have been screwing around with this sort of thing as far back as the Minotaur (if you take that seriously). Or the experiments of Mengele. I'm not sure it's anything new.
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Re: The Singularity Summit 2008

Unread postby TWilliam » Sat 30 Aug 2008, 15:59:45

What I see as the biggest challenge to the concept of the Singularity is this: what if in fact the mystical traditions are correct and what we define as matter is a byproduct of Consciousness, rather than Consciousness being a byproduct of matter? Brain being a manifestation of mind rather than mind being a manifestation of brain, in other words? What then of the idea of conscious machines?
"It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, because Kansas? Is goin' bye-bye... "
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Re: The Singularity Summit 2008

Unread postby Carlhole » Sat 30 Aug 2008, 16:24:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'A')nyway there is no reason to create these. They would compete for dwindling resources with remaining humans.
The idea that die off and singularity can coexist is absurd and hardly needs a rebuttal.

You are speaking from within the coven of the cult when you make certain claims about the future here on PO.com. But you are preaching to a choir of Kool-Aid drinkers here. A more respectable prediction of die-off would be if you were to make those same claims and back them up with good evidence in a venue such as The Singularity Summit or the Global Catastrophic Risks Conference.

The people who are interested in the singularity idea are extremely bright people. They are not living under rocks. They are aware of all the arguments that the peak oil crowd and others have put forth about declining petroleum production and the limits of Earth's mineral and ecological resources.

But they have said that adversity only strengthens the momentum of technological innovation. And I far as I can tell, the momentum of technological progress is showing absolutely NO SIGNS whatsoever of slowing down due to higher energy costs or other limitations.

If you are making the claim that technological progress WILL slow down and ultimately stop, then it's not unreasonable for skeptics to ask you WHEN the slowdown will become evident? How long will it take for technological advancement to come to a dead stop? I don't see ANY signs of that stuff happening.

When you predict a die-off, you are claiming that total energy availability will go SO LOW that people will be entirely unable to adapt. This does not look likely at all. It looks MORE likely that people will adapt to a different energy mix which has less growth associated but which is a stable energy mix and more or less continuous.

A singularitarian would simply look at the amount of sunlight falling on the Earth and the percentage that could reasonably be captured. The singularitarian would also look at the trend of nanotechnologies that advance the efficiencies of solar power. This minimum level of energy availability PRECLUDES a major die-off. Plenty of other options exist apart from solar energy.

And, as long as there are no abrupt, unavoidable cataclysms, the trend of technology solutions to every imaginable problem will continue and thrive. Just because the 20th Century consumer society may adapt to different technology and different energy paradigms, it doesn't spell the end of the world! Human Beings are extraordinarily adaptive creatures. That's how Nature designed the beast.

In the future (hopefully in the near future) it may well bear out that vast human numbers are, indeed, completely unnecessary and very counterproductive to human needs and goals. It will be during a period of many decades that human numbers decline. A big sudden decline of a small percentage of population could occur -- but that would not stop technology.

The world will probably witness a qualitative increase in the health, intelligence and viability of the average human being during this time of population decline. We will probably also see the advent of Machine Intelligence (powerful increasing intelligence is the most valuable thing in the Universe).

When I'm talking about powerful machine intelligence, I'm talking about something that is many times more powerful than a human brain. This is something that will create an unimaginable revolution to how life on Planet Earth is lived.

Perhaps some immensely powerful consciousness will review the Life on the planet over a billion years and muse that a highly developed intelligence was what the Earth must have had in mind from the beginning. And that's why we had to have the 20th Century with all its population growth, consumerism, etc. It may all look quite organic in the perspective of the rear view mirror.

How else to explain the progression of Life's complexity since single cells first appeared? We are not talking about anything new here.
Last edited by Carlhole on Sat 30 Aug 2008, 16:50:40, edited 2 times in total.
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