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Government Shutdown USA

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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 11:07:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'Y')ou just can't stop speaking for other people can you 6?


Where am I wrong, you don't want the US helping the rebels, right?

That's abrogating American leadership in the region. Obama did that as long as he could, he ignored it, but he did set that red line about the nerve gas and sure enough that was crossed so finally he did something. But the world doesn't respect it -- they looked at this shutdown we've had, along with our indecisiveness on Syria, sending ships out then sitting there then not knowing what to do until Putin came up with something, and we looked weak to governments like China and to our allies who are starting to wonder if they should "de-americanize" and follow China's leadership.

We're already losing Australia to China.

We may as well hang on to Japan and South Korea and all the others out there. Japanese have been good allies for a very long time now, and South Korea too, we can't just abandon allies like this -- they don't want Chinese leadership, they want American.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hese rebels are f'ing horrible. They make Assad look like an Angel. The Evilest Caliphate in the ME currently is your KSA friends.


SG, don't be so hard on me. I'm just giving you the American foreign policy situation since the Cold War and before that.

1. The West needs that middle eastern oil, ergo, we cannot give the region up and we are responsible for keeping order
2. In the Cold War we had to hang on to it or else the Soviets would move in
3. Post cold war, Russia has some interest in the region, still
4. Even though the cold war is over, that middle eastern oil is still a critical strategic asset. It would be a serious strategic decision to let it go. And besides that, America actually has very very long ties with Saudi Arabia at this point. This goes way back to when oil was first discovered there, Americans have been there the whole time, and they have a lot of Americans over there right now in business and they've got TGIF restaurants and all that stuff.
5. We have an interest in protecting Israel, and we've kept the peace over there, it's really a miracle what a damn good job the US has done juggling all this for so long

Saudi Arabia is complicated, there's an element over there that's caused us trouble, but overall they've been firmly in the American camp for a very long time. The Saudi government HAS done a lot to fight AQ. This just isn't up for debate, United States can't give up Saudi Arabia anymore than it can Israel.

Bottom line.. US provides leadership in the middle east.. these nations look to us.. we want that oil if push ever comes to shove, it's a national security asset. We can't let the Russians or Chinese lead over there and gain control if we pulled back. We can't let a caliphate rise either. So what all that means is that if there's a civil war on Israel and Turkey's border and it's a problem for Saudi Arabia too, we can't just ignore it.

We're not funding jihadist rebels directly, we're funding the secular rebels. But yes I agree it's messy, but at the end of the day the US has a leadership responsibility to our allies -- Israel, Turkey, Saudi, and we've got to maintain order in the region when things get out of hand. This is just common sense SG, if the Syria civil war gets too bad, we can't let it spill over into Turkey and Saudi or cause Israel problems.

If people want Atlas to shrug and go home then that's a separate debate, and our deep strategic thinkers would have to ponder what a Chinese and Russian led world would mean for the United States, or a multi-state caliphate rising over in the middle east and Israel really in trouble all because we just gave up.
Last edited by Sixstrings on Tue 15 Oct 2013, 11:25:23, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 11:17:28

Sneaking around supplying small and medium arms to scumbag rebels isn't 'leadership'. Leadership is help Assad to be a proper kick ass dictator like these tribal twits actually need and respect.

The USA will NEVER lose Australia to China. That is just flat out paranoia by whoever told you so. We are almost twins. We are sisters, brothers. We can argue and pick holes in each other- but we are joined beyond measure. China is a hugely important trading partner. They will never supplant the US cultural bond.
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 11:47:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'W')hat does any of this have to do with the US government shutdown?


Absolutley nothing.

SG started it with the "obama is in bed with radical islamists."

To bring it back on topic, Obama didn't go to that Pacific summit because of the shutdown. John Kerry went, but he is not the American president and it was noticed.

Image

Think about how embarassing that is, with China telling the world to "de-Americanize" and there's a summit but our president can't go because we can't agree on a budget for air force one jet fuel, along with crab fishing permits in Alaska and hot towel service in the congressional gym.

It made us look like a banana republic. Nobody will follow a country like that, and China's influence grows. Maybe we Americans don't give a shit anymore about leading, that's another debate, but our history shows when we've gone isolationist we ALWAYS end up in a really massive tooth and nail world war over it. The darn British burned our capital city down because we tried to be neutral. World wars one, and two, all got so bad because we stuck to being neutral until we couldn't anymore and then it was a real mess. So that's our American history with the world -- we just wanted to be left alone, the world would never let us.

(let's drop the mideast stuff in this thread, you started it SG. And I don't even want to debate the mideast with you, you get so angry when I am just laying out my country's two options -- we lead in that region, or we go isolationist and sit back and just see what happens over there without us.

As an American I have no deep feelings about the middle east, I'm a Christian, only thing I care about is if the world "de-americanizes" and my dollars are suddenly worth half what they were yesterday. And, to be honest, it would be disconcerting to watch the teevee news at night and see China and Russia in charge of things.

Other than that I don't even care, not enough to debate you and you get so angry.)
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 12:14:24

35 hours to go on the CNN countdown clock to debt ceiling limit, then after the weekend the Treasury would have to start deciding what bills to pay first.

In my opinion, Democrats should now compromise. Republicans are asking for reasonable things at this point. Latest House bill is just asking for a 2 year delay on the medical device tax, and also something about congressmen and congressional aids not getting a subsidy on their healthcare.

Far as I'm concerned, whole federal government should be in the federal ACA exchange -- if it's good enough for the people, it's good enough for our federal employees. And if it ain't good enough then government would make it better since they themselves would be using those plans.

I know Democrats don't want to set a precedent for hostage taking, so that's still a sticky wicket if Republicans are going to do this over and over again, legislating by debt ceiling limit. My opinion though, give them something this one time, be honorable in victory, then draw a red line on any more "hostage taking."

What they're asking for right now is reasonable and as a voter I'm in favor of it. Let's get it over with and open the gov.
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 12:40:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'N')either McCain nor Graham have anything to do with setting Obama administration policy.


I don't want to get out in the weeds on this but I'm tellin ya, the congressional national security republicans not only approved the rebel funding as I just linked above, they wanted Obama to go farther.


Of course.

But the Republicans don't set policy for the Obama administration. Obama does that. Obama is the president and he is responsible for his own policies.

Get it now? :roll:
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 12:46:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')I know Democrats don't want to set a precedent for hostage taking, so that's still a sticky wicket if Republicans are going to do this over and over again, legislating by debt ceiling limit. My opinion though, give them something this one time, be honorable in victory, then draw a red line on any more "hostage taking."


Negotiating over budget issues is not "hostage taking." :roll:

This use of this kind of inflammatory language from Obama and the Ds serves to incite rank and file Ds and frighten the media, but it doesn't change the fact that under the US Constitution all budget issues fall under the purview of the Congress and the Congress is only doing its job when it addresses the debt limit and all other budget issues. :idea:
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 13:05:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')I know Democrats don't want to set a precedent for hostage taking, so that's still a sticky wicket if Republicans are going to do this over and over again, legislating by debt ceiling limit. My opinion though, give them something this one time, be honorable in victory, then draw a red line on any more "hostage taking."


Negotiating over budget issues is not "hostage taking." :roll:

This use of this kind of inflammatory language from Obama and the Ds serves to incite rank and file Ds and frighten the media, but it doesn't change the fact that under the US Constitution all budget issues fall under the purview of the Congress and the Congress is only doing its job when it addresses the debt limit and all other budget issues. :idea:


Correct, but by shutting down government it's "hostage taking."

Wouldn't you call unions who go on strike and don't allow scabs in "hostage taking."?
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 13:43:54

I saw this on zerohedge:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-1 ... n-imminent

If they shut down the food stamp program, this will be the black swan of black swan events. Expect social chaos to erupt, TSHTF moment to arrive. Even the Roman's had to keep bread and circuses running during the collapse of their empire.

Scary if true.
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 13:52:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Repent', 'I') saw this on zerohedge:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-1 ... n-imminent

If they shut down the food stamp program, this will be the black swan of black swan events. Expect social chaos to erupt, TSHTF moment to arrive. Even the Roman's had to keep bread and circuses running during the collapse of their empire.

Scary if true.


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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 14:15:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Repent', 'I') saw this on zerohedge:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-1 ... n-imminent

If they shut down the food stamp program, this will be the black swan of black swan events. Expect social chaos to erupt, TSHTF moment to arrive. Even the Roman's had to keep bread and circuses running during the collapse of their empire.

Scary if true.


You are right---thats a frightening prospect. It might be a good idea to lay in some emergency food now if you live in an area with a large number of foodstamp recipients.

Over 46 million Americans are now dependent on food stamps and the number has been going up every year for the last five years even though the US economy is supposedly "in recovery."

The Rs have already passed bills to competely fund food stamps, the park service, and every part of the government except the ACA but the Ds won't support it. If things get to the point that the O administration decides to cut off food stamps in November, I guess the Rs in Congress could pass a special bill again to fund food stamps, but the Ds might just refuse to vote on them again.
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby dinopello » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 14:46:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', ' ')It might be a good idea to lay in some emergency food now if you live in an area with a large number of foodstamp recipients.


Here are the most dangerous states by percentage of foodstamp recipients

#1 Mississippi - 22%
#2 Tennessee - 21%
#3 New Mexico - 21 %
#4 Oregon - 21%
#5 Louisiana - 20%
#6 Kentucky - 20%
#7 Georgia - 20%
#8 Maine - 19%
#9 Alabama - 19%
#10 West Virginia - 19%
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby careinke » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 14:49:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'P')reston. Pls don't mock our vets. THX


And it's not "mocking" to point out people like this:

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/

Living on his military pension so he blog full time about "the welfare state" and how people need to arm themselves against the violent homosexuals.


So you are comparing a military pension to welfare? Interesting.

I always viewed my military pension as a fulfillment of a contract, and a promise made by the US government. Here is how it works:

1. It starts with your enlistment, where you sign over your life to the military for a certain number of years, (usually four). During that time, you are on duty/call 24/7 365 days a year, can be sent to any shithole in the world where they want you, are not allowed to criticize the president, can be separated from your family at any time, must maintain your health or be punished, and of course always put the mission first. In addition there is that pesky "Unlimited Liability Clause" where you are expected to give up your life if called upon. Did I mention once you sign, you can't quit without going to jail?

2. You get paid less than the civilian sector. For example a staff sergeant, (E-5), with a couple of kids makes so little that he/she qualifies for EBT. A Captain in the military outranks 95% of other military members in an organization that is much bigger than almost any other civilian organization, yet is paid less than the average American family income. The highest paid general makes less than 30 times the lowest paid service member (CEO's usually make 300-600 times more than their lowest paid employees).

3. When your first enlistment finishes, the military decides if they want to keep you. If they don't need you, or want you, you get discharged with no pension. If you are in a specialty that they need, they will offer you a signing bonus to re-enlist for another four years. If they REALLY need you, you may not be allowed to quit.

4. For officers, there is the added hurdle of the "up or out" policy. Basically, you get two chances for every promotion, if you don't make it, you have to leave. If you leave before 20 years, no pension. Lots of Captains are forced out under this policy after 10-12 years in the service. Think about that for a second. This person has worked himself to the top 5% of his organization and is dismissed because he can't move higher.

So, if you manage to make it to retirement, the government gives you a percentage of your "Base Pay" and a nice health care plan. Officers are also placed on inactive reserve, and subject to recall at any time. "Base Pay" is about 60% of what you were paid while on active duty. Retirement pay is 50% of your base pay at 20 years and rises to 75% of your base pay at 30 years.

Regardless of the bloggers personal views, I don't see how you equate his pension to a welfare payment. And if you can't see the difference, I feel sorry for you.
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 15:04:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '
')
Here are the most dangerous states by percentage of foodstamp recipients

#1 Mississippi - 22%
#2 Tennessee - 21%
#3 New Mexico - 21 %
#4 Oregon - 21%
#5 Louisiana - 20%
#6 Kentucky - 20%
#7 Georgia - 20%
#8 Maine - 19%
#9 Alabama - 19%
#10 West Virginia - 19%


The food stamp program has grown by about 12% a year since Obama became president and loosened up the rules. Amazing that 1 in 5 adults are now on foodstamps in these states. And when you just consider kids, over 50% of all US children are now in families that get food stamps.

You sure don't want to have hungry kids or angry Mainers. I say vote in a special bill to make sure they all their food stamps no matter what.
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby careinke » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 15:23:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wildbourgman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wildbourgman', '
')I think means testing and chained CPI has a chance.


If the GOP wants to cut Social Security (and this has been their Holy Grail for 60 years) then they need to write bills and try to pass the bills, and if they can't pass the bills they need to run on a platform of cutting Social Security. They shouldn't try to do this through secret negotiations forced by a constitutional crisis. I'm not even sure that's possible, but that doesn't mean they won't demand it because these guys live in total fantasy world.



Preston, I'm not asking about what you want, I'm asking what can pass whether or not it's in secret back room deals and in bills that no one reads before they pass it (like the ACA). I'm talking about getting the most we can get passed in congress and signed in order to at least "kick the can", like they did in the 1980's Social Security fix for instance.

What could pass and get signed? Don't forget most people don't pay attention.


I would think we could get bipartisan support for removing the cap SS withholding payments. When I was earning enough to pay my max SS withholding's early in the year, I always felt I should continue paying.

I would also like to see changing SS payments to be the same for everyone, say $1 above whatever is determined to be the poverty level. Though the chances of that happening are very slim.
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 15:32:15

Ted Cruz holds secret meeting of the most conservative house Republicans, in restaurant basement:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')pdated Oct. 15, 11:58 a.m. | Sen. Ted Cruz met with roughly 15 to 20 House Republicans for around two hours late Monday night at the Capitol Hill watering hole Tortilla Coast.

The group appeared to be talking strategy about how they should respond to a tentative Senate deal to reopen the government and raise the debt ceiling without addressing Obamacare in a substantive way, according to sources who witnessed the gathering. The Texas Republican senator and many of the House Republicans in attendance had insisted on including amendments aimed at dismantling Obamacare in the continuing resolution that was intended to avert the current shutdown.

Sources said the House Republicans meeting in the basement of Tortilla Coast with Cruz were some of the most conservative in the House: Reps. Louie Gohmert of Texas, Steve King of Iowa, Jim Jordan of Ohio, Raúl R. Labrador of Idaho, Justin Amash of Michigan, Marlin Stutzman of Indiana, Thomas Massie of Kentucky and Tim Huelskamp of Kansas.
http://blogs.rollcall.com/218/ted-cruz-house-republicans-meet-in-secret-at-tortilla-coast/


If Boehner is willing to ditch them, and go with moderate Republicans and all the Democratic votes, then the Cruz caucus doesn't matter. Unless they were talking about speakership revolt. It's all up to the majority of Republicans who aren't hardcore tea party, yet so afraid of tea party primary challenge.
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 15:42:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'N')egotiating over budget issues is not "hostage taking." :roll:


This hasn't been regular order though. Annual budgets, house passes one senate passes one then they meet in conference and compromise the two bills, then off to the prez for signature or veto.

Rather, this has been lurching budgets for months at a time then we have a a crisis over and over again as the debt ceiling is hit.

It's no way to run a business or a government, house and senate are supposed to take their bills to conference and work it the hell out right there. That's how it's always been done. 200+ years now. Senate has tried over and over to go to conference and Boehner refused to appoint conferees.
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 16:02:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 't')his has been lurching budgets for months at a time then we have a a crisis over and over again as the debt ceiling is hit.

It's no way to run a business or a government, house and senate are supposed to take their bills to conference and work it the hell out right there.


You are quite right.

Unfortunately while the house passed budgets each year the Senate did not pass budget bills for the years 2010-2013 so regular order was impossible and the government budgets were set each year by continuing resolution that simply funded year after year the huge increases in spending and the enormous deficits that O and the Ds set up in 2009.

I understand that the Rs in the house and the Ds in the Senate have both passed budget bills for the 2014 year---for the Ds this is their first budget bill since 2009.

I agree with you it is desirable for the Ds and Rs to go to conference to try to merge their respective budgets and return to regular order for the 2014 budget year. However it is a bit unfair for you to blame this state of affairs only on the Rs, when the Ds in the Senate failed to do their job and didn't pass a budget for the last 4 years.
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby careinke » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 16:04:50

If this shutdown continues, we may hit one of my major "Canary" warnings of collapse. The government stops paying military pensions. 8O
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 16:14:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') would also like to see changing SS payments to be the same for everyone, say $1 above whatever is determined to be the poverty level. Though the chances of that happening are very slim.


So you want seniors who worked hard their whole life to get subsistence payments on SS while you get a big fat military pension with free medical for life after how many years service?
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Re: US government shuts down

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 15 Oct 2013, 16:18:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', 'I')f this shutdown continues, we may hit one of my major "Canary" warnings of collapse. The government stops paying military pensions. 8O


Military pensions would stop before SS payments bc the number of beneficiaries is way less? :idea:
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