[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'A')nd now to keep this "meaningful" comparison going lets compute the energy in a cubic mile of apples and compare to a 1,000 cubits of oranges. I anxiously await your numbers. LOL.

[Quinny]

It's not meant to be a 'meaningful comparison' in suggesting that substitution is even possible.

The graphic was to demonstrate the scale of the predicament we face. IMHO (and I think the creator of the graphic was of the same opinion) none of the proposed 'solutions/replacements' are feasible even without taking into account the energy 'sink' effect of investment in alternatives!

[ROCKMAN]

Quinny - I suspect you're correct. But I still smile when I think about how many here looked up "cubits" to see what they are. Occasionally I post merely for my own amusement. LOL.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'T')he graphic was to demonstrate the scale of the predicament we face. IMHO (and I think the creator of the graphic was of the same opinion) none of the proposed 'solutions/replacements' are feasible even without taking into account the energy 'sink' effect of investment in alternatives!

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '
')
But "REPLACEMENT" is a strawman. The point is not to replace, its to delete. That is the effect of economic forces on human behavior as energy prices rise. We use oil for some extremely slothful and ultra-luxurious behaviors that are so commonplace that we think them normal. We use the amount of oil required to prepare a field for planting just to go fetch a pack of beer. Oil is THAT cheap and plentiful. At one tenth of current production, oil will still be extremely cheap for the economically productive uses that it is put towards; but fetching the pack of beer will be done as it has been for thousands of years, we'll walk or use a low cost, low speed energy alternative (bicycle, electric scooter/cart, whatever).

What does it say about us that the thought of using an electric scooter at 20mph to travel a couple miles is intolerably embarrassing to some?

I do know one thing, a lot of bad things can happen to the economy with increasing scarcity of oil, but economically forcing Bob to fetch his beer on bicycle or electric scooter/cart is uniformly awesome.

Demand destruction is not the problem. It is the solution to PO. Refer to any recent post of Pops posting those per capita vehicle miles traveled. This isn't a pipe dream, eco-happy choosing, or fantasy, it is underway NOW, by means of economic force.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou may think I am kidding with respect to the last item, “We need help from a Higher Power,” but I am not. Our universe seems to have been created by a Big Bang. But big bangs don’t just happen. We live in a very orderly universe. According to Newton’s Laws of Motion, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. We also know that useful energy is balanced by friction. This, in fact, is a necessary balance, or the system would spin out of control. We also would not be able to drive down the road in a car without friction.

If a big bang happened, it seems likely to me that there was a major force behind the big bang. We can call this force Nature or a Higher Power. I am doubtful that the force behind the big bang would fix the world situation so that humans can continue along their current destructive path on earth. But the force might fix the situation in some other way–perhaps make the transition for humans easier to bear, or produce a new kind of big bang supporting an afterlife for humans as envisioned by various religions.

[Timo]

Nope! Not buying it. Nature has no empathy. Higher powers are fantasies, and if there ever was a higher power, i doubt humans would have ever been created.

[Simon_R]

Hi Pops

From a Judeo / Christian viewpoint, big G gave free will, and as someone I know said, you cant fix stupid, and if it/he/she did then that wouldn't be free will.

Assuming a non aligned higher power, why would our earth matter ?
we would need to know the game plan of an entity that can create the universe

[Simon_R]

Timo

you sais $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'n')ature has no empathy

[Timo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Simon_R', 'T')imo

you sais $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'n')ature has no empathy

[Pops]

The thing I found interesting here was not Gails idea that G might pitch in, but that it is no. 3 on her list of solutions. I've always found Gail pragmatic, prone to doom but pretty realistic. That she is starting to hope for a Big Bang to heaven was kinda surprising.

[Ibon]

She is absolutely right regarding solutions requiring a higher power. Worshipping The Overshoot Predator

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Timo', 'N')ope! Not buying it. Nature has no empathy. Higher powers are fantasies, and if there ever was a higher power, i doubt humans would have ever been created.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'S')he is absolutely right regarding solutions requiring a higher power. Worshipping The Overshoot Predator

[Simon_R]

Timo

in our experience you need a brain to express empathy

Whilst nature is then an expression used to describe our collective environment
at what point can interactions between various inanimate or indeed animate objects give an appearance of consciousness. Simply put, how do we know that we are not some tiny part of a virtually limitless conciousness (higher power).

Whilst you are using the term nature to describe a collection, how many people do you see on these boards referring to 'mother nature'

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'S')he is absolutely right regarding solutions requiring a higher power. Worshipping The Overshoot Predator

[ROCKMAN]

Interesting discussion. I've been sitting here for the last 4 days drilling my next horizontal well in the 68 year old oil field. I'll probably get a break tomorrow and can run into town. The conversation has inspired me: I'll try to find a print shop and see if I can get a t-shirt with "WORSHIP ME!" printed on the back. And the when folks ask me about it I'll explain how I can save them from PO...once they kneel before me. I just hope to Dog they get the humor. LOL.

[Pops]

Shall we call you the FossilFuelFairy then ROCK?

the F-F-Fairy

LOL

[Paulo1]

Time to head for Finite World after this, but reading your ideas I think she really means people are probably incapable as a group to fix the mess. As such, it falls within her doom and gloom paradigm.

I don't know about you folks, but I'm busting my hump not to be one of the casualties until my natural time is over. I also want to leave what we have built for our children. As for today and for us, life is good...the glass is more full than empty.

paulo

[Beery1]

To be honest, I stopped listening to Gail T a few months ago when it became clear that she was a hard crash advocate (in that not only does she think a hard crash is coming, but she seems to want it to come too). This latest eschatological nuttiness of hers just confirms for me that she's living in as big a fantasy world as the cornucopians who think oil wells will refill from a magical source deep in the Earth. Sadly, there are nutcases on both sides of the issue and sometimes the biggest nuts sound most convincing... right up until they go off the deep end with one wacky theory or another.

If all she had done was to say that we need a higher power to solve this, sure, I could buy that - after all, humans aren't likely to fix what is not a "problem" (fixable) but a "dilemma" (non-fixable). But when she starts to try to tell us that this higher power must exist and might intervene... well, no. There is no higher power like that - there just isn't, and if there was ever a time for nutty god fantasies, this is most certainly NOT it.