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economic and environmental policies you would like to see...

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 30 Jul 2008, 19:01:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarlosFerreira', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')Hell with the renewables if they can't compete with geothermal and fission then they don't need to be used at all IMO.


Can I object? A policy of diverse renewables will allow for a great independence concentrated energy storage (like oil) imports. I live in a windy place, with the fierce Atlantic nearby; we would likely get by on wind and sea energy production, along with powerdown. I don't have data on this, mind.

As for fission, take a look at this article on High level waste. It says that at current level of production, 12,000 tonnes of nuclear waste (highly radioactive, thermally hot and with half-life decays of hundreds, thousands of years) are produced every year.

As for geothermal, it's specifically located in some places. I don't have specific data, but that same chart gives a total 2.1% of electricity generation from geo, solar, wind, wood and waste combined.

Renewables have a lot of potential to grow, coming from seemingly nowhere. As for fission, an increase in production will bring about a corresponding increase in waste. Those wastes are, I remember, terrifyingly dangerous (some of them weapons grade, the Wikipedia text says) and consume a lot of energy to refrigerate and money in surveillance.


Sure you can object but you should read through FAQ first so we are communication from the same base of knowledge.

From your own citation on Wikipedia 25,000 tons of spent fuel annually is reducible to 3,000 cubic meters of vitrified waste, an ammount so small that any random piece of uninhabited land on the planet could host thousands of years of it without need for excessive security or cooling. Especially if you pick a high altitude location on a geologically stable mountain where natural weather will keep things quite cold thank you very much.

As for geothermal, the potential has been barely explored at all at this point in history, there are a great many locations where hot dry rock is within modern drilling distance of the surface. If Geothermal got even a tith of the government grant money solar and wind get you would see a lot more development.
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby cube » Wed 30 Jul 2008, 19:31:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarlosFerreira', '[')i]Education: Free college and graduate education for all. Mandatory free professional education for those who choose not to graduate. Scholarships for residence, based on merit. Paid post-graduate studies, but wider availability of scholarships for that too.
question:
what is professional education?
Is it like a "trade school" (auto-mechanic, air conditioning repairman, welder,etc...)?
Or were you talking about something else?
//
Not to sound mean but IMHO it makes no sense to literally push EVERYBODY through college. Not everybody can become a doctor, lawyer, engineer........somebody has to take a low paying job like a truck driver, garbage man, or college professor. :wink:
Why create a society where everybody has a college education when only 10% of the jobs that exist in an economy requires it?
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby bruce2288 » Wed 30 Jul 2008, 19:35:09

Require all welfare users to work a 40 hr week. Recycling trash, tutoring, picking up hyway trash,visiting shut ins, use your imagination. If you want the check you put in the time. Term limits. Balanced budget
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby cube » Wed 30 Jul 2008, 19:40:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '.')..
Hell with the renewables if they can't compete with geothermal and fission then they don't need to be used at all IMO.
sounds fair enough.
However is there an agreement, despite being very politically unpopular, that the retail price of electricity MUST go up to pay for these projects? --> y / n

Everything is going up these days whether it's a loaf of bread or the commodity price of steel and concrete. This is pushing up the construction cost of everything: geothermal, nuclear, *insert your favorite energy technology*, a cup of coffee at Starbucks, everything!
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby Peleg » Wed 30 Jul 2008, 21:33:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bruce2288', 'R')equire all welfare users to work a 40 hr week. Recycling trash, tutoring, picking up hyway trash,visiting shut ins, use your imagination. If you want the check you put in the time. Term limits. Balanced budget


We could have all the self made men of the world run their own complete supply chain with no help from the rest of us. Something tells me most would resort to the roadkill buffet pretty quickly. But we'll make sure that their world of one has a term limit and that they balance their budget.
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby bruce2288 » Thu 31 Jul 2008, 00:38:30

Pegleg, You must not have liked the "do your service for your welfare check" idea. Your cute one man supply line reply didn't make much of an agrument.
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby MrBill » Thu 31 Jul 2008, 02:44:34

I don't like any ideas that do not pay for themselves. External funding via deficit spending is NOT an option. So if you close down large sectors of the economy to save the environment, for example, who pays for that 'free education'? The goal should be life-long learning, not sending students to college or higher education that did not learn anything in their first 12-years of 'free' primary and secondary education?

I dislike seeing schools used as dumping grounds for problem children. They are places of learning. It would be much better for everyone to send those children to work where they at least could learn a trade. Believe me my step-brother chose a vocational route, got two trade tickets, and now is a highly paid Drill Push on the rigs. He hated school with a passion despite his father being the school's principle.

I do not believe in free education anymore than I believe in free healthcare. User pays. That is the only way to limit demand and ensure quality. There is no way I would ever support doing away with private education. Lowest common denominator. I would do away with tenure and teacher's unions. There is no reason the state cannot provide a good education at a reasonable cost, but I see no reason to give them a monopoly?

Rockman, I in no way aspire to a dictatorship, but in every failed state that I am familiar with the state spent its way into bankruptcy - usually in the name of social progress - and then was forced to swing to the right in order to restore order. That usually means a fascist dictatorship in some shape or form. Sometimes dressed up as President for life.

I have said it before, I will say it again, we can have any kind of social system we want including a cradle to grave welfare state, but only if we have the economy to pay for it. The Left believes economics do not matter. The Right uses pseudo-economic arguments out of political expediency. Otherwise they could not get elected in a democracy. The voter just wants something for free. And business just arbitrages between political fantasy and economic reality.
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby CarlosFerreira » Thu 31 Jul 2008, 05:19:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')Sure you can object but you should read through FAQ first so we are communication from the same base of knowledge.


Right. I thought it was just a one-shot remark, but I see it's me who's out of depth here. Let me get my numbers straight, and take the discussion to the FAQ you posted. This will only confuse the discussion here.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')I dislike seeing schools used as dumping grounds for problem children. They are places of learning. It would be much better for everyone to send those children to work where they at least could learn a trade. Believe me my step-brother chose a vocational route, got two trade tickets, and now is a highly paid Drill Push on the rigs. He hated school with a passion despite his father being the school's principle.

I do not believe in free education anymore than I believe in free healthcare. User pays. That is the only way to limit demand and ensure quality. There is no way I would ever support doing away with private education. Lowest common denominator. I would do away with tenure and teacher's unions. There is no reason the state cannot provide a good education at a reasonable cost, but I see no reason to give them a monopoly?


I understand what you mean, but it's a specific reality that bothers me. Portugal has a very low standard of education, and private schools (colleges) are specifically used to raise high-school averages for those who can afford it, therefore ensuring entrance in the most sought-after graduations, since the offer for those specific graduations is quite limited.

As for private Universities, government has compulsively shut down one of the largest ones yesterday, and this is the second one to be closed in one year (google-translated news here) . The level is teaching is recognized as appalling. Even the Prime Minister's graduation in Engineering from one of these universities has been shown to be a fraud. Really.

cube, "professional education" was a direct translation (a "false friend") of trade school. Thank you. I just feel the global education, cultural and civic level is very, very low. I wonder how could this be achieved in a sustainable fashion? Maybe place trade schools under Guilds, like in past centuries? Include cultural, political, economic teaching. I suppose we could cut the compulsory education from 12 to 10 years (I am speculating here), and have those 2 years for trade school or ramp-up to university. Trade schools or ramp-up to university years could include the compulsory public service time some of you mentioned: not only would you be serving, you would be learning something as well.
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 31 Jul 2008, 05:26:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')The Left believes economics do not matter.


The right hardly knows how to manage the economy either.
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby cube » Thu 31 Jul 2008, 06:02:59

Left vs. Right

*gales of laughter*
That debate ended in the 20th century.
NEITHER of them exist anymore.
You guys ever noticed the right no longer talks about fiscal restraint and the left no longer talks about sticking up for the little man?
It's as if the worse aspects of both political ideologies have been combined to produce the abomination we have today.
I'm not sure what it's called neo-conservatism???
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby BlueGhostNo2 » Thu 31 Jul 2008, 08:48:00

I think a large part of western problems are caused by market distortions. These market distortions are actually a result of the market being too free. So in addition to Tylers points above about bringing externalities into the market place through tax...

In respects to markets being too free: anything which obtusifies the market should be removed for the good of society. I don't think we can tackle it directly but the practice of companies creating demands rather than creating a product shows just how warped our society has become.

This means if the relationship is not: 'entity A produces product X, entity B needs a product similar in type to X, B goes to the market and looking at honest information on these products choose product X which is best suited to their needs, legislation to protect the market place and change social mores be required.

This means:

No emotive advertising, it is already illegal to lie directly about products but it is O.K. to tell an emotive lie that a product will make you feel a certain way or give you a certain lifestyle.

No subsidies of products or proprietary lock ins. If you make a razor handle to sell below cost, you better publish the specs and let me make the razor blades.

No hard sells, if your business can't exist without forcing people to buy things on the spot society will exist quite happily without your business.

This does not require a large amount of new laws simply make it illegal to create a market distortion, publicize what types of activity are unacceptable then start prosecuting starting with the worst offenders. Society will rapidly adapt much as it is rare for people to murder at the moment it will be rare for market distortions to be carried out against society. This should be a crime for which neither limited liability nor 'following orders' is a defense.

Hopefully we can start to curb the excessive consumption after we've removed so many of the drives that push us towards is.
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Unread postby Devin » Thu 31 Jul 2008, 08:53:39

Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to see...

Hmm. None, actually. I'd rather see no policies at all.

Just thought I'd throw that into the mix while everyone imagines their centrally planned utopia. :)
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby Homesteader » Thu 31 Jul 2008, 09:29:09

-Disallow the externalization of environmental costs. The the only way consumers will ever become environmentally aware short of catastrophes is through their wallet. For everything.

example: Allow mountain-top removal coal mining, no problem, but the cost of the environmental destruction is going to be reflected in the cost of your electricity.

-Abolish all subsidies and tariffs. See above

-Institute flat tax at federal levels and use tax for goods and services. The more you consume the more tax you pay. Want to start your 5th frivolous lawsuit? You get to pay a 10% tax. Want that 90' motor cruiser? 10% tax etc. . .Want to buy fruits and vegetables from Brazil in January? Fine, but you will pay their true cost. Want that SUV? Fine, but you will pay the true cost.

I believe free markets will work fine and consumers will make good choices when the signals for their choices are represented in the true cost of goods and services.
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby Peleg » Fri 01 Aug 2008, 00:13:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bruce2288', 'P')egleg, You must not have liked the "do your service for your welfare check" idea. Your cute one man supply line reply didn't make much of an agrument.


Even on one leg my words make more sense than your silence. Here is a more verbose reply.

No man is an island, and sometimes everyone needs a little help. I personally think the Europeans have it dead right on welfare. And as a counter example to your implication, they have not seen a major rise in crack moms, or delinquent violence coming out of welfare homes. Most people do not feel good about welfare and so they do act to use it as little as possible, the problem is that in a modern society welfare is a built in fact. Somebody had to spend their valuable time making the Starbucks cups we drink our lattes in. That is time they are not going to get back. Did we really pay them for the comfort of a latte? My comfort for their pain?

Also, we have a pretty hardened sub-group of blue collar workers in the land who think that unless you are mindlessly stacking boxes for $10/hr you are not actually working. And as soon as the union fails them they are out on the web venting about how the man stuck it to 'em again. The problem is everyone is the MAN, together we are THE MAN. The social psychology of the working man's burden is what made songs like 'Working Man' by Rush and 'Blue Collar Man' by Styx so popular. The noble savage circa 1975, pride delux.

If I am allowed to make the comparison, a pastor who helps one person turn their life around touches through that person tens of thousands of other lives and preempts more negative things than we care to admit. How much is that worth? Certainly much more than the lifetime salary of most pastors. How many souls have you saved?

Then again, someone who works in a public policy think tank and helps develop a welfare system whereby no one ever feels like they have been forgotten by society preempts many crimes, they preempt many needless pregnancies because you can use a carrot and stick approach in family planning. What about someone who uses their time and talents to get educated enough to help develop a sustainability committee on a college campus, how many lives will that affect positively?

I've seen the self made men, time and again, assert that everyone needs to yank themselves up by the seat of their own pants. 'We just want a chance.' Ok, well your job is going overseas where people work at 95% the quality you do for 25% the pay. So in the mean time here is some welfare and some education credits, good luck. Talking the big man talk works until you are about 60 with bad knees, hoping beyond hope that you don't die of a heart attack before you can get some time to enjoy the good life promised by your pension and SSI. But wait, isn't SSI welfare too. It now serves as defacto retirement for most people who do not either have the income potential or the savvy to build their own retirement. Should'nt we get rid of Social Security too? Medicare? Medicaid?

Your position as written fails to show any humanity. Judgment is without mercy to those who show no mercy. You have it all wrong. I am not willing to argue to the extreme either way. sometimes people need help, and sometimes the contributions made by others are not appreciated by us.

The bottom line for this 'Christian' nation is that the Bible is very clear in stating that society should care for the poor. It is also common sense when we consider human origins as revealed by modern science. Why would we find graves from the ancient hunter gatherers where elderly and infirm members showed growth in their bones for years after suffering debilitating injuries?

What about the externalities of your way of life? Are you paying for them? The pollution you create? What about the loss of productivity that comes from the fact that you are not the absolute best person to do the job you do? I mean surely you are not the 100th percentile man right? So by not seeking out someone who will work more and complain less, isn't your employer giving you a subsidy? Don't you actually need your employer to be located where it is in order to have a job at all. Is that a need you have or is that something you allow them to do so they can be graced by your illumination?

The world that your short inputs here looks for is one in which people like you in the extreme would suffer greatly. In such a world of desparation people would turn to each other for help like they always do. Who could be there to help you if you need no help?

I'm sure that makes it clearer, my opinion on the matter. It's sad you have to share the world with so many people like Bill Gates, who soundly defeated you in the game of life and is now giving away the evidence of his thrift, superiority, genius, and luck to the tune of billions of dollars. Do you know how much money a billion dollars is? That's 1000 millions. 1 million is more than 33 times $30,000. Therefore giving away a billion dollars is the equivalent of an entire city of 30,000 employees working for 33 years. The Bill Gates Foundation will give away in the next 30 years the equivalent of ten average midwestern cities. How does that make you feel? Have you ever heard Bill Gates say he did it alone? Certainly he did not sell himself out, but look at how many lives have benefitted from his contribution to society? How many doctors offices are less likely to lose patient data because they have a PC running Windows? Does that matter? We could go on and on. Should their not be a great reward for that?

For a man who did it all by himself, you make me envy you less with every word of self sufficiency you utter. I hope you find the courage to mellow a little and understand that there is more to life than having and not having. Sharing, loving, patience,... actually caring enough to notice the hardwork others do,...to understand how much most people who are perpetually on welfare have to overcome.

Do you have the courage to look into the eyes of the 50 million Americans who are survivors of child abuse and tell them society owes them nothing? It costs the nation billions of dollars per year to treat depression and other mental illnesses related to that abuse. Those issues reduce our productivity and therefore in some way our GDP.

Many Americans have been making the wrong choices about humanity for a long time. I am happy to say that we see a rational middle rising up who do not think that selfishness and malevolence toward those in need is a pathway forward. When the hurting become the abusers they rob themselves of sympathy, abusing themselves even further, and the end of that path is a prison for the soul and often for the body also.
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby cube » Fri 01 Aug 2008, 01:23:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '.')..
-Abolish all subsidies and tariffs. See above
...
Including:
1) education
2) renewable energy
3) public transportation
4) housing for the poor
5) medical care for the elderly
:wink:
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby Homesteader » Fri 01 Aug 2008, 05:05:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '.')..
-Abolish all subsidies and tariffs. See above
...
Including:
1) education
2) renewable energy
3) public transportation
4) housing for the poor
5) medical care for the elderly
:wink:


Hmmm, I was thinking more along corporate and international trade lines. That being said

1. education: I can only speak for the U.S. It has been pretty well shown that more money doesn't make a better system. Require something that is free and demands work and a lot of people resent you, they don't value the gift.(I'm a teacher)
2. Renewables: When/if environmental costs aren't externalized renewable energy will look a lot more competitive vis-a-vis fossil and nuclear. Loved my off-grid solar powered home that I built in the early 90's, I didn't need no stinking subsidies.
3.Public transportation: You might be right there.
4. Housing for the poor: Between the die-off and the credit crisis there will be plenty of housing around for a couple of decades. :wink:
5. Medical care for the elderly: You got me there also, although demand will go down as the die-off picks up steam. :wink:
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby cube » Fri 01 Aug 2008, 05:40:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '2'). Renewables: When/if environmental costs aren't externalized renewable energy will look a lot more competitive vis-a-vis fossil and nuclear.
I never understood why environmentalists get upset over fossil fuels.
PO == end of fossil fuel energy.
Just sit back, be patient, and *do nothing*. You'll get your "alternative" energy wish without the need for a government program.
See look the "free market" really does work I don't know why so many people complain otherwise!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '4'). Housing for the poor: Between the die-off and the credit crisis there will be plenty of housing around for a couple of decades.
guaranteed housing == yes
guaranteed copper pipes == no :wink:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '5'). Medical care for the elderly: You got me there also, although demand will go down as the die-off picks up steam.
I like the way you think.
But I see it as a win-win situation.
We save money on both health care and social security the sooner people die-off. :-D
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby cube » Fri 01 Aug 2008, 05:48:50

what would I do? --> nothing

The very moment I retire from my job as the world dictator, society will simply re-arrange things back the way it was before.
so what's the point?

Change must come from the bottom up and NOT top down.
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby Homesteader » Fri 01 Aug 2008, 09:09:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'w')hat would I do? --> nothing

The very moment I retire from my job as the world dictator, society will simply re-arrange things back the way it was before.
so what's the point?


Got Nepotism?
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Re: economic and environmental policies you would like to se

Unread postby MrBill » Fri 01 Aug 2008, 09:43:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')The Left believes economics do not matter.


The right hardly knows how to manage the economy either.


Which is why if you read my quote I criticize the Left and the Right equally for their weak grasp of economics as well as criticize the voter's complicity in just wanting something for nothing.

Cube that is the point. In order to win elections the Left and the Right have met in the middle, and now just steal one another's policies based on misinformation and psuedo-economic arguments (sound bites) to justify whatever it is that they feel will differentiate themselves from the other party to get elected.

You will notice how neither the Left nor the Right are currently talking about deficits, debts, unfunded liabilities or how to pay for entitlement programs in this year's US election campaign. Actually addressing economic problems as opposed to bemoaning their symptoms is a clear vote loser. Voters do not vote for economic pain.

Notice how tax and spend is losing the current debate as opposed to spend and borrow. Which is why Obama has had to change tact. Nowhere will you hear candidates talking about actually repaying debt much less a clear plan how to achieve that goal. You might not recognize a Left-Right bias in an argument, but I sure can.
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