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Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 17 Aug 2005, 22:59:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', ' ')
In fact that kind of symbolic thinking that Specop proposes, only appears in higher mammals
You should read what Lorenz has to say about birds, in particular Ravens.
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 17 Aug 2005, 23:06:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', ' ')
In fact that kind of symbolic thinking that Specop proposes, only appears in higher mammals
You should read what Lorenz has to say about birds, in particular Ravens.

Oh I do not disagree that smaller animals can think; I do not know if they can manipulate symbols i.e. do explicit counting, communicate in non-stigmergic ways. Lorenz is cool ... have read a book by him in the 70s.
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 17 Aug 2005, 23:09:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tinosorb', 'C')onvict cichlids exhibit complex parenting behaviors similar to those of humans:

http://www.csus.edu/news/112602fish.htm

Is he describing the worst post PO scenario?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')the parenting decisions have potentially permanent consequences. "In parental situations, if they screw up, someone eats the kids," Coleman says. "Natural selection doesn't work on the species-it operates on the individuals."
8O 8O
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 17 Aug 2005, 23:18:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', '
')Oh I do not disagree that smaller animals can think; I do not know if they can manipulate symbols i.e. do explicit counting, communicate in non-stigmergic ways. Lorenz is cool ... have read a book by him in the 70s.
I've never read him before today, and now I'm planning to head down to the library and read more. BTW, I went to the dictionary to look up stigmergic. No luck, what is it? As far as animals thinking at all, big or small, I don't see why it has to be all or nothing, i.e. human thinking or none at all. There are probably are all sorts of intelligences besides our own brand. The idea that only mammalian species have escaped from totalistic instinctuality doesn't seem true to me. Of course there are Skinnerian Behavioristic types who might argue that we don't really have anything going on but instinct anyway, just more complex instincts.
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 17 Aug 2005, 23:27:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', '
')Oh I do not disagree that smaller animals can think; I do not know if they can manipulate symbols i.e. do explicit counting, communicate in non-stigmergic ways. Lorenz is cool ... have read a book by him in the 70s.
I've never read him before today, and now I'm planning to head down to the library and read more. BTW, I went to the dictionary to look up stigmergic. No luck, what is it? As far as animals thinking at all, big or small, I don't see why it has to be all or nothing, i.e. human thinking or none at all. There are probably are all sorts of intelligences besides our own brand. The idea that only mammalian species have escaped from totalistic instinctuality doesn't seem true to me. Of course there are Skinnerian Behavioristic types who might argue that we don't really have anything going on but instinct anyway, just more complex instincts.

Stigmergic = stimulating product of work
Communication by chemical trails i.e. in insect societies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 17 Aug 2005, 23:50:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', '
')Stigmergic = stimulating product of work
Communication by chemical trails i.e. in insect societies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy
Thanks, the learning never stops at Peakoil.com! Regarding intelligence in animals, presumably it is one adaptive strategy among many that get selected in nature. I would guess that the jewel fish is far more intelligent than a shark which has all it needs for its adaptive niche. Them sharks don't need no stinkin' intelligence, they got TEETH! The intelligence of eusocial insects seems to be very pronounced but doesn't reside in the individual insect, but rather in the collective. So collective intelligence can be real. In fact, the intelligence in a human brain only arises from the collective work of neural networks - a situation very analogous to the eusocial intelligence of an army art colony that knows how to build rafts to cross water, etc.
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby turmoil » Wed 17 Aug 2005, 23:58:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'I') think therefore I fish....

And I fish, therefore I am. :)

Hence, we think therefore we are. 8)
"If you are a real seeker after truth, it's necessary that at least once in your life you doubt all things as far as possible"-Rene Descartes

"When you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains however improbable must be the truth"-Sherlock Holmes
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby EnergySpin » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 00:02:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'I')n fact, the intelligence in a human brain only arises from the collective work of neural networks - a situation very analogous to the eusocial intelligence of an army art colony that knows how to build rafts to cross water, etc.

Correct ... these are important issues regarding the emergence of intelligence, symbolic thinking etc. The connectionist paradigm can be applied to other physical systems.
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 00:18:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', '
')Correct ... these are important issues regarding the emergence of intelligence, symbolic thinking etc. The connectionist paradigm can be applied to other physical systems.
Now we're really coming full circle back to the Peak Oil situation. Another system which this 'connectionist paradigm' can be applied to is modern technological civilization. The tough, resilient, collective power of our civilization is an emergent intelligence which no one person or even institution has a handle on. Nobody can grasp the whole. But, it is fed by oil. Take away the oil or reduce its availability, and can it survive? No one knows the answer to this. This is in effect the big debate of this website, IMO.
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby EnergySpin » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 00:35:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', '
')Correct ... these are important issues regarding the emergence of intelligence, symbolic thinking etc. The connectionist paradigm can be applied to other physical systems.
Now we're really coming full circle back to the Peak Oil situation. Another system which this 'connectionist paradigm' can be applied to is modern technological civilization. The tough, resilient, collective power of our civilization is an emergent intelligence which no one person or even institution has a handle on. Nobody can grasp the whole. But, it is fed by oil. Take away the oil or reduce its availability, and can it survive? No one knows the answer to this. This is in effect the big debate of this website, IMO.

This argument may also be used to say that the system can find a solution.
I think a solution may have been found or at the very least the system is aware. There is one big player that has been on this game since 1996 . I will only provide a link and people can check background of participants.
http://www.cera.com/ceraweek/2006/speak ... 6,,00.html
Remember what I wrote: the solution to planetary wide energy problems is LIFE
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 00:45:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', '
')This argument may also be used to say that the system can find a solution.
I think a solution may have been found or at the very least the system is aware. There is one big player that has been on this game since 1996 . I will only provide a link and people can check background of participants.
http://www.cera.com/ceraweek/2006/speak ... 6,,00.html
Remember what I wrote: the solution to planetary wide energy problems is LIFE
I checked out all the stuff you can click there and didn't find anything about solutions, just a lot of stuff to show that they are a really big show. So the CEO of Microsoft shows up and listens to some speeches for a week and networks with a lot of other big shots. Sounds like a gabfest to me unless you can enlighten me.
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby EnergySpin » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 00:51:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', '
')This argument may also be used to say that the system can find a solution.
I think a solution may have been found or at the very least the system is aware. There is one big player that has been on this game since 1996 . I will only provide a link and people can check background of participants.
http://www.cera.com/ceraweek/2006/speak ... 6,,00.html
Remember what I wrote: the solution to planetary wide energy problems is LIFE
I checked out all the stuff you can click there and didn't find anything about solutions, just a lot of stuff to show that they are a really big show. So the CEO of Microsoft shows up and listens to some speeches for a week and networks with a lot of other big shots. Sounds like a gabfest to me unless you can enlighten me.

Craig Venter
If Balmer is going to be in that conference that would only serve to enhance my suspicion that a mitigation will be offered, since there is a connection for people who know about how this line of business works.
Now do your homework PMS ... :-D
And look at 1996 as well ... I can understand many things with this hindsight that made no sense when a certain announcement was made in 1996.
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 00:59:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', '
')If Balmer is going to be in that conference that would only serve to enhance my suspicion that a mitigation will be offered, since there is a connection for people who know about how this line of business works.
Now do your homework PMS ... :-D
And look at 1996 as well ... I can understand many things with this hindsight that made no sense when a certain announcement was made in 1996.
Ah, man! I clicked all their buttons and links. I was hoping you would clue me in. :(
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby EnergySpin » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 01:12:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', '
')If Balmer is going to be in that conference that would only serve to enhance my suspicion that a mitigation will be offered, since there is a connection for people who know about how this line of business works.
Now do your homework PMS ... :-D
And look at 1996 as well ... I can understand many things with this hindsight that made no sense when a certain announcement was made in 1996.
Ah, man! I clicked all their buttons and links. I was hoping you would clue me in. :(

I PMed you ... now use your internet searching skills on the material I sent u :-D
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 01:25:36

That's interesting stuff and I will read it. A convergence of biotech and energy. You don't know how much I hope this all pans out. Thanks, ES. I'll discuss it with Christoph. Right now, though, I'm going to watch the first Coen Bros. movie Blood Simple. Somebody said here in this forum that it was a terrific movie.
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby EnergySpin » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 01:32:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'T')hat's interesting stuff and I will read it. A convergence of biotech and energy. You don't know how much I hope this all pans out. Thanks, ES. I'll discuss it with Christoph. Right now, though, I'm going to watch the first Coen Bros. movie Blood Simple. Somebody said here in this forum that it was a terrific movie.

We will see ... this why I said a shift in technology management is about to happen. There are three powerful technologies that are converging ... none of which is under public control (unfortunately).
And the person I mentioned is not stupid ... he understands the concepts of LIFE.
The degree of control will be much larger than everything we have known so far.
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby threadbear » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 02:08:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'W')hy do you guys think that fish have a symbolic program (like specop does).
There is nothing of that sort in their "brain". Just cells and electrical currents that jump from one cell to the other.
In fact that kind of symbolic thinking that Specop proposes, only appears in higher mammals


Behaviourists have had tremendous destructive effect on our understanding of what it means to be an animal. This is a natural by-product of not understanding what it means to be human.

Behaviourism reduces the animal to the level of a machine that responds automatically to stimulus. This is a poor description of the animal's life but explains the behaviourist's pretty well. The career behavioral scientist knows exactly what kind of levers to push to be rewarded with grant money. It's a positively reinforced behaviour, that ensures the self perpetuation of a warped ideology.

Animals have depth of spirit, intelligence, emotional complexity. They are treated abominably, because we don't understand this, and because we can get away with it.
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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby Aaron » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 08:51:11

Maybe he just does not like seafood?
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Do Fish Think? Konrad Lorenz

Unread postby max_power29 » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 12:15:15

Octopi are suposed to be one of the smartest animals.
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