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David Irving

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Re: David Irving

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 26 Feb 2006, 14:31:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('malcomatic_51', 'T')his is not a freedom of speech issue, it is an issue of obscenity and not allowing vile, dangerous political extremists to accumulate support by airing their lies. Do not be so naive as to suppose its acceptable to allow poisonous credos thier say. It is not.


I have decided your ideas are dangerously extreme and obscene.

I propose we do not let you express them.

As you say, this is not a Freedom of Speech issue. It is for the common good.
malcomatic is right. Holocaust deniers are a pernicious danger, at least in Germanic countries. Here in the US they are just obnoxious imbeciles and so we tolerate them.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby Chuck » Sun 26 Feb 2006, 14:32:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('malcomatic_51', 'T')his is not a freedom of speech issue, it is an issue of obscenity and not allowing vile, dangerous political extremists to accumulate support by airing their lies. Do not be so naive as to suppose its acceptable to allow poisonous credos thier say. It is not.


I have decided your ideas are dangerously extreme and obscene.

I propose we do not let you express them.

As you say, this is not a Freedom of Speech issue. It is for the common good.


I agree with Tommy wholehearted.
Malcomatic's remarks offended me deeply.
Let us ban the man.
The government will think of something
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 26 Feb 2006, 14:43:21

The riff raff are stirring. Take note all you wannabe demagogues and Fuehrers. Your time is coming again.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby Chuck » Sun 26 Feb 2006, 15:16:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'T')he riff raff are stirring. Take note all you wannabe demagogues and Fuehrers. Your time is coming again.


riff raff.....nice!
Must be a pleasant feeling to be on the right side in every debate.
If I lived in the 1940's I would be on Hitler's list for sure, because of my inferior race.
I also have been in jail for my stance against militarism.
Still I feel the need to investigate and have the "courage" to change my views.
Maybe you try that also instead of hiding behind all the sane people with their sane views.
But I guess that is beneath your standing, because everybody knows that 6 million Jews died in the Vernichtungslager.
And you have seen the gas chambers with your own eyes on TV.
The government will think of something
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby eastbay » Sun 26 Feb 2006, 15:21:29

Malcolmatic 51,

That's just one of the the things about the entire matter that I really find peculiar. Of course we all know by now that there are differing numbers tossed around changing (sometimes wildly) from decade to decade and it's all a matter of 'faith' that makes one believe in one set of numbers over another. The part of the issue I find offensive is that placing ones 'faith' in one set of numbers over another can lead to serious jail time and fines. Maybe because I live in the US that I find this so completely surreal. What happened to Irving is a crime against a prevailing 'faith' paradigm and it's strange to think it can happen anywhere in this day and age. And it's also surreal that pointing out the strangeness of this growing debate itself can lead to unkind and harsh accusations as we have seen here.

Incidentally, state dispensed punishment for 'faith' violations isn't unique to Europeans, however, as we all are well aware so I don't mean to single out and disparage Europeans. I don't want to be accused of being anti-anything. Just pointing out the madness of this matter.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 27 Feb 2006, 00:52:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', ' ')
a prevailing 'faith' paradigm and it's strange to think it can happen anywhere in this day and age. And it's also surreal that pointing out the strangeness of this growing debate itself can lead to unkind and harsh accusations as we have seen here.
this is not a faith issue. To say so is absurd. The history is in the books. You people who want to make an issue of whether the numbers are this or that and wrap it up in 'free speech' are picking a curious topic to express your concerns with. You're getting in bed with rabid hate mongers whether you wish to or not. I'll tell you what's "harsh and unkind": murdering millions of people because of irrational hatred, being stripped and forced to walk barefoot over sharp rocks between rows of ferocious, barking, snarling German Shepard dogs and leering sadistic murderers into gas 'showers'. You want to tell me that didn't happen? So what in the hell are you arguing about?
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby eastbay » Mon 27 Feb 2006, 01:19:02

Hey PMS relax, it was all four generations ago. Yikes. When everyone finds a number that can be agreed upon we'll all be happy right? So why not research it once and for all? But that can't be done because of the fear of jail.

They say the winners write the history, but I believe the truth finds a way out in time. Oh well, we'll just have to let the winners version of the events run awhile longer. Eventually the truth finds a way out. It may even be that the current version is right... but I doubt it... the truth is generally somewhere between. I don't mind saying that because I have no plans to go to Europe and I seriously doubt if they'll extradite me for posting anything here.

But just in case the laws governing extradition between the USA and the EEU change let me say I believe 6 million Jews were somehow gassed and their bodies were somehow cremated in mass ovens in WWII. And if in 10 years we are required to say it was 7 million then I'll change my beliefs to 7 million.... or to 8 million, etc.

Oh, and let me assure you I wouldn't be allowed in bed with these guys... for a variety of obvious reasons... lol. If you knew me you'd immediately understand. I'm in bed with no one other than my dear wife.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 27 Feb 2006, 01:35:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'H')ey PMS relax, it was all four generations ago. Yikes.
You call it a 'faith' issue and drag Socrates' name into it. I call bullshit. You want to say "the winners write the history"; why, to cast doubt on the holocaust? Four generations ago wasn't that long, and now we have these cretins who dance gingerly around the numbers issue, flirting with Nazi propaganda which got the whole holocaust denial thing started in the first place when they realized they were going to lose. Seems more like the losers writing the history to me if it's really a "growing debate" as you put it. So don't tell me to fucking relax. I despise people who want to cast doubt on this horrendous crime.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby eastbay » Mon 27 Feb 2006, 11:02:56

Hey PMS, remind me to not discuss religion, history, or politics with you anymore... :shock: lol... swearing and apparent anger during a history discussion... heh... I do believe that's the first time I've ever witnessed that happen. Maybe I haven't been paying that close attention.

Far, far, worse happened to my ancestors and to the ancestors of my family than are alleged to have happened during WWII yet we never get angry or excited about it (certainly never swearing or using unkind terms... heh) ... and we never will either. :)

Remember, a happy attitude helps make a happier world.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Mon 27 Feb 2006, 12:29:54

Restricting freedom of speech is obscene. Every vile and horrific thing governments have done to people proceeds from it.

It is utterly disgusting to see it promoted here.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 27 Feb 2006, 13:26:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'H')ey PMS, remind me to not discuss religion, history, or politics with you anymore...
OK. suit yourself. It's a free country.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 27 Feb 2006, 16:14:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'R')estricting freedom of speech is obscene. Every vile and horrific thing governments have done to people proceeds from it.

It is utterly disgusting to see it promoted here.
I think we can make a distinction between free speech advocates and those who, however coy and dissembling, want to suggest that the holocaust is "exaggerated" or a phony story cooked up by the "winners" of WWII. The former have a good case to make, but not really neccessary in the US, since nobody is being persecuted by the law here for saying the holocaust didn't happen or is "exaggerated". The latter are vile, however urbane and polite; unless, of course, they really are just interested in the exact number of Nazi victims in a dissinterested scholarly way, like some bean counter who wants the exact number for punctilious reasons.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby eastbay » Mon 27 Feb 2006, 16:57:31

While training this morning for an upcoming weightlifting competition I was thinking of Galileo who spent years in jail for his thoughts... then I realized that during the course of human history countless people have had their freedoms restricted to some degree solely due to their thoughts. Examples are endless. How many today are in China's jails for wrong-beliefs? How many were sent to the Soviet gulags? How about the Salem trials? Anyone remember what happened to Christians during a period of Roman history? So many people through human history have had this horror fall on them simply for thought crimes that it's actually been more the norm than the exception.

What happened recently to the famous historian David Irving really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. A long jail term or a beheading for though crimes isn't only a time honored and widely respected European tradition, but it's been a common practice throughout the ages encompassing nearly all cultures and peoples.

The real surprise will be when people are no longer incarcerated or killed simply for this. But that day will never come until anger and ignorance are replaced with compassion and wisdom.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby malcomatic_51 » Mon 27 Feb 2006, 19:40:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chuck', '
')
I agree with Tommy wholehearted.
Malcomatic's remarks offended me deeply.
Let us ban the man.


You must be somewhat thin-skinned if you really mean this.

Eastbay wrote:

"Of course we all know by now that there are differing numbers tossed around changing (sometimes wildly) from decade to decade and it's all a matter of 'faith' that makes one believe in one set of numbers over another."

There has never been much dispute about the number of Jews murdered if you are considering serious sources. In the very early years after WW2 there may have been some variation as the evidence was accumulated, but it is pretentious to suggest there has been wild variations in the last 40 years.

Those who disagree with my remarks appear to be mostly posting from the USA. Judging from their vague arguments they are either trolling or just vindicate criticism of US teaching of European history, and in particular how extreme politics got into Europe after the First World War. I repeat, no society can permit extreme groups to promote their lies. These groups have no interest in preserving democratic traditions (the Nazis were perfectly open that they would abolish democracy, it must be said); they seek to organise those at the fringe who hate the comfortable orthodoxy of family life because through personal failure or misfortune they have been excluded from such convention. They seek to organise these elements into a power structure that always centres on white, Christian supremecy and contempt for anybody else. It's all "in group, out group" psychology.

Perhaps I am jabbing raw nerves to state this? Maybe that is why there have been hostile reactions to what I have stated.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 27 Feb 2006, 19:54:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('malcomatic_51', '
')There has never been much dispute about the number of Jews murdered if you are considering serious sources.
That doesn't matter here. People come here mostly to say what they think and express themselves, not to learn anything from anyone else. You'll see ignorance and bigotry dressed up in ideals and flowery language in some cases, or self-righteous ideological foolishness in others. These people haven't read much about it, probably. The level of education in this country is pathetic.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby entropyfails » Mon 27 Feb 2006, 20:24:30

One, no one responded to the Supercaust point because it proves that thoughcrime has no merit as a legal strategy.

Two, these Holocaust deniers have a mental disease. Their hate clouds their judgment and probably ruins everything else in their lives. They need medical help, not jail time.

Three, those arguing for jail for the “evil of thoughcrime” have a MUCH larger chance of harming the world by empowering their governments to clamp down on “unacceptable thought” than crazy closet Nazi’s ever have of resurrecting the “Reich.”
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby Eddie_lomax » Mon 27 Feb 2006, 20:29:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '
')But imagine if the racist assholes in the USA would have murdered millions and started a world war - do you honestly think there would not be some kind of law against a resurrection of this political movement?

Yes Austrians and Germans should have the same rights, but they also should have a special historical obligation (no guilt - that's something entirely different).
And in such a very specific occasion the obligation trumps the right. Freedom of speech stops where it endangers the life and health of others.


Nope, you either have freedom of speech or you don't, full stop.

You have to be free to debate even the most widely accepted views, otherwise your civilisation is liable to get stuck in a rut.

And I really can't see from a UK perspective why on earth Germans or Austrians have a obligation to the past ? Its been 60 years now, are you saying that the UK should start reparations to the Chinese for the Opium wars, or the Turkish for the Armenian massacres ? When exactly does this special obligation end ? And is it reserved just for special groups ?

I just crack up with laughter when I see some of this politically correct nonsense (like a few years ago some Danish group apologising for the viking invasions!), and sink into depression with some of the more recent junk.

And why on earth they ban debate on anything is beyond me, the earth is round but everyone is free to argue against it, it won't change the roundness either. Banning debate on the holocaust is a bad idea, sure people will deny it completely or question the percieved accounts, but if the facts are real and there, then its hard to ignore (like leading Nazis actually saying "we did it" - kind of hard to ignore that one!). Making the debate one sided just gives credibility to the people who'd like to deny it, and high profile court cases like this are perfect publicity.

From what I've seen of the holocaust industry theres a lot of money involved there, figures in the Billions and no one gives a toss about the Political prisoners, Slavs, and gypsies caught up in it.

In my opinion its all rather sordid really, sure living relatives should be compensated if possible, but 60 years on somehow I reckon the link is getting tenious. Afterall, we don't see the Japanese jumping to compensate British POW's in Burma, commemorate them for sure - but since most of them are dead I cease to see how money will help ?
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby Chuck » Tue 28 Feb 2006, 06:15:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('malcomatic_51', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chuck', '
')
I agree with Tommy wholehearted.
Malcomatic's remarks offended me deeply.
Let us ban the man.


You must be somewhat thin-skinned if you really mean this.



Sorry, I forgot the use the irony warning signs.
Thought it was so obvious.
Maybe it (the use of irony/sarcasm) is a Dutch/Euro-thing?
The government will think of something
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby malcomatic_51 » Tue 28 Feb 2006, 17:45:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'W')hile training this morning for an upcoming weightlifting competition I was thinking of Galileo who spent years in jail for his thoughts... then I realized that during the course of human history countless people have had their freedoms restricted to some degree solely due to their thoughts. Examples are endless. How many today are in China's jails for wrong-beliefs? How many were sent to the Soviet gulags? How about the Salem trials? Anyone remember what happened to Christians during a period of Roman history? So many people through human history have had this horror fall on them simply for thought crimes that it's actually been more the norm than the exception.

What happened recently to the famous historian David Irving really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. A long jail term or a beheading for though crimes isn't only a time honored and widely respected European tradition, but it's been a common practice throughout the ages encompassing nearly all cultures and peoples.

The real surprise will be when people are no longer incarcerated or killed simply for this. But that day will never come until anger and ignorance are replaced with compassion and wisdom.


You are a droll chap, I must say.
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