[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', 'M')aybe approach it from the other direction. What is it that makes people refuse to even contemplate the idea? There's much of that even here, whatever it is. Perhaps if we can identify that, a good antonym will present itself?

[sjn]

Okay, AdamB, since you're here:

Why is it net energy analysis is invalid?

Why do thermodynamics not apply to human activities?

How does contemporary Economic Theory deal with Complex Systems Theory? Or do you believe the Economy not a complex non-equilibrium system as many economists assert?

[sjn]

pstarr, I'm just trying to make sense of the resistance to understand or even contemplate the concept.

Just for fun here's a link to a book published in 1933 on this topic I'm going to read over the holiday:
WEALTH, VIRTUAL
WEALTH and DEBT

THE SOLUTION OF THE
ECONOMIC PARADOX

By
FREDERICK SODDY, M.A., F.R.S.

Dr. Lee’s Professor of Chemistry in the University of Oxford;
Nobel Prize Winner in Chemistry, 1921
Author of “Science and Life,” “Money versus Man,” etc.

Maybe AdamB will read it?

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', 'O')kay, AdamB, since you're here:

Why is it net energy analysis is invalid?

[sjn]

They we deliberately loaded questions because there's a pattern to the answers.

Net energy analysis is not about comparing sunlight, a defuse energy source (from our point of view) to gasoline, an energy carrier. But the processes involved, in an attempt to quantify how much exergy remains at the end of the process within established boundaries of the analysis. The utility of the (petrochemical product) gasoline is very much a function of the net energy from the petroleum production system. A direct comparison would be to "gasoline" or similar liquid fuel synthesised through a process powered by sunlight.

Thermodynamics and complex systems theory provides the framework to explain why one process has more utility than another.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd what is "complex" about non-equilibrium systems, and do you even know what they are, or can name one?

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', 'T')hey we deliberately loaded questions because there's a pattern to the answers.

Net energy analysis is not about comparing sunlight, a defuse energy source (from our point of view) to gasoline, an energy carrier. But the processes involved, in an attempt to quantify how much exergy remains at the end of the process within established boundaries of the analysis. The utility of the (petrochemical product) gasoline is very much a function of the net energy from the petroleum production system. A direct comparison would be to "gasoline" or similar liquid fuel synthesised through a process powered by sunlight.

Thermodynamics and complex systems theory provides the framework to explain why one process has more utility than another.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd what is "complex" about non-equilibrium systems, and do you even know what they are, or can name one?

[Zarquon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', 'M')aybe approach it from the other direction. What is it that makes people refuse to even contemplate the idea? There's much of that even here, whatever it is. Perhaps if we can identify that, a good antonym will present itself?

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '
')Net energy analysis is not about comparing sunlight, a defuse energy source (from our point of view) to gasoline, an energy carrier.

[Zarquon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')I like that. It's happy I'll give. Have an paypal account?

[Zarquon]

I forgot how to count volumes in anything but barrels. Anyway, just fill up a tanker and send it my way.

[sjn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', 'T')hey we deliberately loaded questions because there's a pattern to the answers.

Net energy analysis is not about comparing sunlight, a defuse energy source (from our point of view) to gasoline, an energy carrier. But the processes involved, in an attempt to quantify how much exergy remains at the end of the process within established boundaries of the analysis. The utility of the (petrochemical product) gasoline is very much a function of the net energy from the petroleum production system. A direct comparison would be to "gasoline" or similar liquid fuel synthesised through a process powered by sunlight.

Thermodynamics and complex systems theory provides the framework to explain why one process has more utility than another.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd what is "complex" about non-equilibrium systems, and do you even know what they are, or can name one?

[sjn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '
')Net energy analysis is not about comparing sunlight, a defuse energy source (from our point of view) to gasoline, an energy carrier.

[evilgenius]

I think what you are getting at is what the oil industry originally faced when they had to overcome competition with coal and whale oil. In order to do that they had to cut down on the complexity. They did this by developing the integrated oil company model. Instead of factions fighting it out for supremacy in diverse modules related to the whole process that oil would require, effort could be done in the name of the company. Later, when oil as an economic means to extract energy, and don't forget plastics (an example of making byproducts work toward the company goal as well), became viable complexity was reintroduced. That's when gas stations became branded with names of oil companies they were no longer tied to in that more significant way.

Alternative energy as a means to a viable economic future has to supplant oil, as well as succeed at the task at hand. The modern version of the integrated solution is being tried by all kinds of different people. No one has rolled it out, but they are each trying to build something that they can use as a platform to do so. Elon Musk is doing it with Tesla, and the associated Solar City. Uber is doing it from the transportation corner as well, hoping for an AI boost into it with self-driving cars in the next few years. Then they can go all electric, taking advantage of the reduced maintenance costs of electric cars. Google has its hand in there. So does Apple. Google understand power generation, especially from the standpoint of server farm power and cooling. Apple is facing the need to maintain a level of growth which can only be achieved by grasping the vision, a self-driving car project is only the start for them.

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '
')It doesn't make sense to compare apples with trees.