[Zero-point]

Economic perspectives are totally invalid. You must convert all economic arguments to actual units of energy if you want to know what is viable or not.

Since mankind has started agriculture or the industrial revolution and throughout history the real engine of progress has always been the physical units of energy not money. Money is more a psychological invention but energy units is the real measure of what can be achieved or what the actual costs of civilization are.

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zero-point', 'E')conomic perspectives are totally invalid. You must convert all economic arguments to actual units of energy if you want to know what is viable or not.

[Cashmere]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zero-point', 'E')conomic perspectives are totally invalid. You must convert all economic arguments to actual units of energy if you want to know what is viable or not.

Since mankind has started agriculture or the industrial revolution and throughout history the real engine of progress has always been the physical units of energy not money. Money is more a psychological invention but energy units is the real measure of what can be achieved or what the actual costs of civilization are.

[Zero-point]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')Since, however you do it, you are making a decision about how to utylize a scarce resource, how do you measure "energy viability" (if I may coin a term) with out it automatically becoming an economic decision?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')n economy is the realized system of human activities related to the production, distribution, exchange, and consumption of goods and services of a country or other area.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zero-point', 'T')he point is that the "economy" as you seem to think of it, --snip--Money is worth what people want it to be worth not necessarily what it costs a society or civilization in terms of actual units of energy.

[Zero-point]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '1'). What do you propose to measure in?
2. Will this be exempt from the psychology since a) it will still be used by humans and b) humans will be making judgments about it and we are, for better or for worse, psychological creatures?
In other words, I think you are articulating a difference without a distinction. You have a problem with humans and you are blaming it on economists because they are handy.

[wisconsin_cur]

Do you make a distinction for how available that watt was? In other words 10 watts of coal does me no good while I can use 10 watts of wood, propane, gasoline or diesel. Some energy is more scarce than others due to the form that it comes in (ie easily transported and refined light crude versus natural gas).

If you are a slave to anyone, it is because you think yourself to be one. There are plenty of ways to travel the underground railroad if you have the guts to travel it.

If you do not have the guts than it is not the fault of economists, the man, politicians or anyone else... the problem is in the mirror.

[Zero-point]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'D')o you make a distinction for how available that watt was? In other words 10 watts of coal does me no good while I can use 10 watts of wood, propane, gasoline or diesel. Some energy is more scarce than others due to the form that it comes in (ie easily transported and refined light crude versus natural gas).

If you are a slave to anyone, it is because you think yourself to be one. There are plenty of ways to travel the underground railroad if you have the guts to travel it.

If you do not have the guts than it is not the fault of economists, the man, politicians or anyone else... the problem is in the mirror.

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zero-point', 'E')conomic perspectives are totally invalid. You must convert all economic arguments to actual units of energy if you want to know what is viable or not.

Since mankind has started agriculture or the industrial revolution and throughout history the real engine of progress has always been the physical units of energy not money. Money is more a psychological invention but energy units is the real measure of what can be achieved or what the actual costs of civilization are.

[Zero-point]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'A')n oil refinery wastes energy. As does a coal-fired power plant. Both have an EROEI of less than 1:1.

A joule is not just a joule.

[mlayden]

[quote=
You are missing the point of the original argument.
Whether an energy technology is viable or not and what a society can do and build and accomplish is ultimately based not on money but on energy.[/quote]

Not to complicate the argument any more, but is "time" not as important as money or energy. The time to add the lifeboats is before the ship hits the iceberg. All the money and all the most efficient use of energy will do diddly squat if you don't have the time.

Wave, fusion and even Nuclear could be a decade away. Wind and PVs have had up to eighteen month waiting list. In time of crisis this waiting period would increase greatly. I would imagine that everything from boliers, solar panels, insulated piping etc etc would also have long waiting periods if demand for them increased. Hybrids have similar bottle necks.

Many cheap technologies only have 10-15 year design lives so they will be failing just when they are needed. A great deal of infrastructure, Gas, Electrical, Oil, Nuclear, Roads, Bridges is failing or will have failed in the next decade or so. So if time isn't considered then it might prove difficult to operate and maintain technologies
ttp://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/index.cfm


Also there is a hierarchy of value of energy for society. During Wars and when energy is scarce, frivolous uses of energy. i.e for the domestic sector etc are curtailed and energy is largely used to support Industry, agriculture and services. It is important to be able to bootstrap thesecritical sectors when energy supplies contract. So politics are probably as relevant as money, energy and time.

i.e the political imperative will be to keep as many people happy as possible, i.e maintain the status quo, so it is likely that all the energy, time and all the money will continue to be wasted. After all when has government ever worried about commercial viability.

Michael
Ireland

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')If you are a slave to anyone, it is because you think yourself to be one. There are plenty of ways to travel the underground railroad if you have the guts to travel it.

If you do not have the guts than it is not the fault of economists, the man, politicians or anyone else... the problem is in the mirror.

[wisconsin_cur]

The mere point is we are all responsible for how we respond to the situation we find ourselves in.

Complaining about "economic slavery" and wishing that the system was different is rather pointless.

Work to free yourself from that system and you are too busy... and perhaps happy.. to complain "Oh everything would be perfect if we just..."
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[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')Complaining about "economic slavery" and wishing that the system was different is rather pointless.

[Zero-point]

Reminding all who replied the "original" point of this post unlike some who would try to blame the messenger and ignore the point.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zero-point', 'E')conomic perspectives are totally invalid. You must convert all economic arguments to actual units of energy if you want to know what is viable or not.

Since mankind has started agriculture or the industrial revolution and throughout history the real engine of progress has always been the physical units of energy not money. Money is more a psychological invention but energy units is the real measure of what can be achieved or what the actual costs of civilization are.

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')Complaining about "economic slavery" and wishing that the system was different is rather pointless.

Work to free yourself from that system and you are too busy... and perhaps happy.. to complain "Oh everything would be perfect if we just..."
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