[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'T')he problem is that if you are leading a low-energy, sustainable existence, and your neighbors are not, they will come over and take your resources with their superior numbers once their own run out. I'm not sure how we are going to keep that from happening.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f there's a global shortage of energy, the problem will solve itself eventually. The unsustainable neighbours are going to fall to pieces.

[rostov]

Just read half of the book in the library, jumping away from several chapters which we're all aware of already. A few quick thoughts.

Firstly, it's why Tikopia survived. In parallel to Montequest's message on teamspeak + forum on a consensus for ZPG, this island community already gets it. Active abortion / pregnancy prevention methods (fav rave : "Coitus Interruptus") + active killing of babies when born. Volunteer-based suicide, or allowing mass virtual suicide when one clan choose to die rather than be murdered by another clan. I've gotta spend some time digesting this in my quest to answer my own question : "Who and how do we choose the 9 out of 10 that need to be pushed out of a sinking boat?"

The second thing that irked me is this : all this materials on his book, with obvious signs of overshoot in population and resource depletion, and he calls himself an optimist?

Interestingly Richard Heinberg's summary of the book is quite accurate. I like also the fact on amazon that those who bought this book or tainter's book also had the following bought :

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Customers who bought this book also bought

* Powerdown : Options and Actions for a Post-Carbon World by Richard Heinberg
* The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies by Richard Heinberg
* Resource Wars: The New Landscape of Global Conflict With a New Introduction by the Author by Michael T. Klare
* Overshoot: The Ecological Basis of Revolutionary Change by William Catton
* Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared Diamond
* The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of the Oil Age, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-first Century by James Howard Kunstler

[Novus]

This book just came out in paper back and it is an excellent read. This is not just a peak oil book but a Peak Everything book. No conplex society has ever collapsed because of the over exploitation of a single resource be it modern oil or the Trees on Easter Island and Greenland.

Jared Diamond documents the twelve components that lead to societal collapse. The societies of Greenland, Easter Island, Ankor Watt, and Mayan America completely distroyed the entire ecologies their civilizations needed to survive. When people over exploit an ecological system it tends to completely collapse taking the people and civilization with it. Easter Island and Greenland once had lush forests but today are barron rocks in the ocean. The fertile cresent in Iraq, Syria, and Lebonon was once the bread basket of the ancient world. Today it is a desert. The same process that distroyed the ancient civilizations is alive and well today. The ecosystems in Rawanda and Somalia are in a state of ongoing collapse and the human populations are crashing into genocide and dieoff.

The process is also comming to the First World for not even America is immune. He uses the case of Montana which was once one of the richest states because of its vast natural resources but is now the second poorest because of over exploitation. The forests have all either been clearcut or are unhealthy tinder boxes because of poor forest management in harvesting the old growth trees. Montana's 20,000 abandoned copper and gold mines will leach leathal doses or cynide and arsenic into into the water sheds for 100,000 years. Over 90% of the fish in the lakes and rivers are now dead and many ponds have become toxic waste dumps from the mines. The once fertile soil is now encrusted with salt from the distruction of complex root systems. Many wells that once produced clean drinking water now produce water twice as salty as seawater. Montana which was once a great exporter of Timber, Mined metals, and Farm goods is now an inporter of these things. The economy is almost entirely tourism based now with rich people building summer homes where farms once stood. If Montanta were isolated from the rest of the world its' economy and population would have already crashed and died off.

Similar proped up dead zones exist all over the world including Europe, China, India, and Austrailia. Easter Island, and Greenland and others did not die-off all at once but had occurances of dead zones or abandoned farmland and fisheries long before the main die-off. After the oldest exploited lands were abandoned for less spoiled zones the entire ecollogy collapses as the unspoiled areas were quickly distroyed and stripped until there was nothing left but barren rock. The entire earth going through a similar process until it will be completely stripped and left as a dead rock in space.

[Graeme]

Here's another site which reviews "Collapse" and "Guns, Germs, and Steel":

chron

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')And he hammers home the idea that we can cut our consumption of natural resources without diminishing our standard of living. "A lot of our consumption is wasteful," he says, pointing out that Germany maintains higher living standards than the United States while consuming half as much oil per capita."

[Aimrehtopyh]

I'm about one third done. So far the archeology and ecology rate excellent, but since I've been absorbing it through a filter of Peak Oil consciousness and a general pessimism about human nature the book has been not entirely enjoyable. The bleak hopelessness that I've gotten used to after years of being a Peak Oiler swells unbearably and I find it hard to read on.

The cornicopian technofetishist I was before learning of Peak Oil would have just laughed at the "stupid primitives" that did themselves in. Modern-day pseudo-collapses like the Soviet Union or North Korea can easily be dismissed as examples of poor leadership/principles if you choose to ignore resource depletion.

[Quinny]

Just started this and found the comparison between Greenland and Montana a bit ridiculous TBH. It's put me off on first page.

It seems to be a bit obvious that a cow farm in Greenland is going to be a bit unsustainable.

I'm tempted to stop now. Does it get better?

[lateStarter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'J')ust started this and found the comparison between Greenland and Montana a bit ridiculous TBH. It's put me off on first page.

It seems to be a bit obvious that a cow farm in Greenland is going to be a bit unsustainable.

I'm tempted to stop now. Does it get better?

[yeahbut]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'A')s for the cow farm, it would have been sustainable, if the folks had applied appropriate technology and not the bad habits they brought from Iceland.

[Quinny]

Thanks I'll give it a go. I'll try to block out my childish thoughts about the market for udder warmers and fresh ice cream!

[TreebeardsUncle]

Have read both his Guns, Germs and Stell and Collapse as well as Stephen Loeb's How to Profit When Oil Reaches $200 a Barrel.

Also recommend the Journey of Man by Spencer Wells.

Generally the less sustainable societies do in the more sustainable ones.
Sometimes folks adopt less sustainable practices because they appear more advantageous.
g