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Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

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Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby wisconsin_cur » Sun 17 Feb 2008, 21:13:57

Link to the whole story

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ill Reinert, who helped design Toyota Motor Corp.'s Prius hybrid, hovers in a helicopter 1,000 feet over Fort McMurray, Alberta. On this clear November morning, he's craning for a look at one of the world's largest petroleum reserves where there's not an oil well in sight. Instead, in a 2-mile-wide pit below, trucks head to refineries with loads of sand weighing more than Boeing 747s. Yellow flames shoot skyward as 900-degree-Fahrenheit (482-degree- Celsius) heat liquefies any embedded petroleum. Floating scarecrows and propane-powered cannons do their best to chase migrating birds from lethal wastewater ponds. Eventually, nuclear reactors may surround the crater 270 miles (435 kilometers) northeast of Edmonton, Alberta, delivering the power required to wring oil from sand.

"This is what the end of the age of oil means," says Reinert, 60, who plans the vehicles Toyota will make in a quarter century as national manager for advanced technology at the U.S. sales unit in Torrance, California. "The car-based culture, the business-as- usual of building cars and trucks, is going to change dramatically."


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')einert says nobody can say for sure how the separate tailpipe emission, fuel economy and manufacturing regulations promulgated worldwide by multiple levels of government will affect the environment. There's no blueprint for the impact of increasingly scarce oil on a U.S. economy already laboring with a mortgage crisis and a dropping dollar. Add industrialization in China and India, and the number of cars and trucks worldwide may double to 2.1 billion by 2030, according to the Paris-based International Energy Agency.

"We don't have a past, a history or a database that allows us to explore the simultaneous impact of recessions, disruptions to the energy supply and climate change," says Reinert, who spent six years in the 1980s maintaining solar and wind-powered telephone towers in Colorado's Rocky Mountains. "We don't have the legislative, regulatory, financial or product planning tools."


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he environmental desecration at Fort McMurray and the dangers in petroleum-rich countries such as Iraq and Saudi Arabia show why it's foolish to brush off warnings about an energy-depleted future, says Jan Kreider, an engineering professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder who had Reinert as a graduate student. "We're going to have to have crisis on top of crisis before energy policies change," he says. "Americans have this shock mentality where they do what they want to do for as long as they can and then set up massive programs to fix everything in a few years."


So why do I still feel like a freak when I mention resource depletion in a sermon (it is a friendly crowd to the idea) or to a neighbor or co-worker?
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby wisconsin_cur » Sun 17 Feb 2008, 21:22:42

more highlights

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')akamura, one of a handful of occupants on the top floor of Toyota's Higashi Fuji Technical Center near Mt. Fuji, says he worries the world's oceans could get so hot that they'll release carbon instead of storing it--with catastrophic consequences for human life. Nakamura takes his own measurements of atmospheric pollution and is scouring the world for alternative fuels. He's targeting hydrogen, electricity or ammonia as replacements for petroleum to ensure that auto, aircraft and ship builders remain viable for another century.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')einert says that without action, oil may become so expensive that the world would resemble the one in Blade Runner. In the 1982 film, the rich live hundreds of stories high and the poor walk dark, rain-soaked streets. Or the lack of oil may cause the breakdown of social order depicted in the 1979 movie Mad Max. Reinert says Fort McMurray provides a window into such fictional portrayals. He predicts that the clamor for energy security will trump all environmental concerns worldwide. And he forecasts that most alternatives to conventional petroleum, such as oil sands and ethanol, will make climate change and water shortages worse.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n the interim, nations will be more dependent on the Middle East, where getting oil is complicated by war, political turmoil and declining output from mature wells. "After a series of incidents in the Persian Gulf, or a low-level nuclear exchange that shuts off oil supplies, you wouldn't have a short-term disruption like Katrina," Reinert says. "You would have a profound one- or two- or three-year period in which economies and governments fail."


This guy is more of a doomer than I am.
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby Tyler_JC » Sun 17 Feb 2008, 22:21:11

Great article!

I can't wait to see what the plug-in hybrid market is going to look like in 2010/2011 when Toyota joins the party. It's nice to see a corporation planning for the future.
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby BigTex » Sun 17 Feb 2008, 22:23:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'S')o why do I still feel like a freak when I mention resource depletion in a sermon (it is a friendly crowd to the idea) or to a neighbor or co-worker?


Two reasons:

1. They think they know what an energy crisis is like if they were alive in the 1970s and it turned out okay

2. They have enough problems and don't want to hear about another one.

I have consistently run into some variety of these two responses when discussing peak oil.
:)
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby roccman » Sun 17 Feb 2008, 22:42:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'G')reat article!

I can't wait to see what the plug-in hybrid market is going to look like in 2010/2011 when Toyota joins the party. It's nice to see a corporation planning for the future.


Huh Tyler?

Not the pat, "he is over reacting"...or "things will get worse before they get better"...or, "given enough time all threads turn into mad max"?? !!

Rather..."Great article"...??

Have you had a change Tyler? Are you ok tonight?

Or is it because this article is "published" and you assign it credibility over the rantings of anonomous bloggers??

Good grief...worse than PMS (and not the PO Poster)!!
"There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby eastbay » Mon 18 Feb 2008, 00:16:23

Funny Rocco... I was thinking roughly the same thing.

But I'll take a friendly reply from anyone any time.


Wisconsin,

Me too. Happens all the time. It gives us an idea about what we're up against. I was talking to one of our city councilmembers not long ago suggesting the city start making basic plans to prepare for energy scarcities... and he replies, 'oh there's plenty of oil, it's those darn oil companies and Arabs... blah, blah, ethanol, blah blah blah, hydrogen.... '

There was nothing I could say without turning him away so I smiled and said nothing. And this guy's widely considered to be really smart, you know, briefcase, costly suits, big income, uses very long words... you know the type.
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby Tyler_JC » Mon 18 Feb 2008, 00:39:17

I guess it depends on how you read this stuff.

I saw cause for optimism. Toyota is actively working towards a solution and is spending billions of dollars towards that end.
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby TheDude » Mon 18 Feb 2008, 03:54:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'I') saw cause for optimism. Toyota is actively working towards a solution and is spending billions of dollars towards that end.


Guess you ignored this part of the article:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')oyota investors, whose shares tumbled 27 percent to 5,630 yen in the 12 months ended on Jan. 11, say the company's priority must be weathering a weak U.S. market, not chasing breakthroughs in green technology. Last year, U.S. sales declined 2.5 percent to 16.1 million vehicles industrywide. "There's cake, and there's frosting," says Jeffrey Scharf, president of Santa Cruz, California-based Scharf Investments, a fund firm that owns Toyota stock among its $700 million in assets. "Hybrids are more into the area of frosting."


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')reat article!

I can't wait to see what the plug-in hybrid market is going to look like in 2010/2011 when Toyota joins the party. It's nice to see a corporation planning for the future.


PHEV sales are essentially nil at the moment. If HEVs are frosting PHEVs are the little candy silver BBs. Toyota sells 79% of all HEVs: Hybrid dashboard. 9.6% of sales are the hybrid Highlander SUV. :x

Expect about 2.5-3 million HEVs on the roads of the US in 2011. I'm more on board with JD's vision of collosal sales of electric bikes.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Americans have this shock mentality where they do what they want to do for as long as they can and then set up massive programs to fix everything in a few years."


Like everything else these days mitigation will be a Just-in-Time endeavor.
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby mos6507 » Mon 18 Feb 2008, 05:20:52

All of the automakers assume gas will remain affordable to the masses through 2020 and beyond. Sure, they expect gas prices to go up, but nothing so severe that making smaller vehicles, clean diesels, and parallel hybrids won't solve.

Even Bob Lutz recently went on record as a global warming denier who is only pushing the Volt as a way to reduce US dependence on foreign oil (emphasis on foreign).


Most of the concepts that have been shown lately are nowhere near being released. You think the Volt at 3 years off is ages away? The guy behind the Volvo recharge plugin said that design is at least a decade away from commercialization. Mitsubishi seems to be taking its time deciding what to do with the iMiev.

I think they have a rude awakening ahead of them if they think they can walk liesurely into the future.

The only players that are coming to market in the near future with freeway-capable BEV/plugins are the small ones. Tesla, Fisker, Aptera, and BYD.

So if the peak really hits in the next year or two, these small players have the opportunity to take advantage of that timing, but they won't have the production capability to meet demand.
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby MrBill » Mon 18 Feb 2008, 07:52:39

mos6507 wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')esla, Fisker, Aptera, and BYD.


Tesla has a minimum purchase price of $92,000, so I really do not see it taking much market share away from the majors?

A serial production European minivan - take your pick from Opel, Ford, VW, Renault, etc. - gets about 100 km per 5 litres now or approximately 47 mpg. Those vehicles that start in the range of about 15.000 euros or around $22.000 are going to attract more buyers than a low-volume, expensive one.

I watched a program on handmade, low-volume luxury car producers like Ferrari, Lotus, Maserati, etc. Light-weight, high-performance or very efficient depending on how they choose to build those cars. But with starting prices between 250.000 euros to a million a piece probably outside the range of most car buyers. And they can only turn out a few thousand vehicles per year by hand.

Hybrids definitely have a roll to play, but improving the overall CAFE standards for the entire fleet as well as shifting traffic to rail and public transport is the only real alternative in the long-run.
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby evilgenius » Mon 18 Feb 2008, 10:58:16

I was just in France and took note of how many more bikes and motorscooters I saw there than in England. I think in better climates small gas/electric scooters could make a big impact. All the same, there were still too many cars and not enough people walking and using public transport. Now that I have essentially been deported and am back in the USA, even with high gas prices I see huge waste compared to Europe. England has as many cars but each car gets almost twice the mileage. France beats England for efficiency.

The biggest difference by far is in the way that people heat their homes. Everywhere in Europe is way beyond the rank inefficiency of the US. I don't know how the US is going to overcome this with its economy in full train wreck mode.
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby MrBill » Mon 18 Feb 2008, 11:27:19

On the weekend I also watched a program on Germany's traffic. German TV is great for programs about how things work, why they work, etc.

But, apparently, 80.000 kms (50.000 miles) worth of cars go annually in vacation. That is despite rail and other public infrastructure. That is only cars. Twice the circumference around the globe. That is why during official vacation periods they often experience staus - traffic jams - that are between 20 and 100 kms (62 miles) in length, and last anywhere from 2 to 14-hours during peak holiday periods depending on the weather.

I only suffered through such a traffic jam once and then I said, 'never again', but apparently Europeans are now so used to it that they plan on it accordingly, and there are even entrepreneurs that have sprung up to provide port-a-potties and food and beverage services along the motorways when there are peak stau periods.

Despite viable alternatives, and high fuel taxes, clearly, it is hard to get folks out of the comfort (?) of their cars and into alternative modes of transport like trains. Imagine all those countries that do not have Europe's public infrastructure, so they cannot even offer an alternative?
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby TheDude » Mon 18 Feb 2008, 15:42:10

Tesla are using the revenue from the sale of the roadsters to build a more affordable model, codenamed BlueStar, to sell for ca. $30K, available in 2012.
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby alokin » Mon 18 Feb 2008, 19:48:31

devilgenius you wrote:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_code('', 'The biggest difference by far is in the way that people heat their homes. Everywhere in Europe is way beyond the rank inefficiency of the US. I don't know how the US is going to overcome this with its economy in full train wreck mode.')

but neither in England nor in France the standards of home insulation are very good, as far as I know the best you find in Sweden and Switzerland, and maybe Germany. But this standard drives house prices up, it's lot of detail work and has to be done neatly.
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby yesplease » Tue 19 Feb 2008, 00:40:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'H')ybrids definitely have a roll to play, but improving the overall CAFE standards for the entire fleet as well as shifting traffic to rail and public transport is the only real alternative in the long-run.
I disagree regarding CAFE because historically, car companies have simply sold vehicles that avoid it via some sort of loophole. Even though CAFE has been around for over two decades, the American fleet average is still right around 17mpg because for every auto sold that falls under CAFE, there was an SUV/pickup that didn't have to comply with CAFE and brought the actual fleet average down drastically. IMO, taxation of fuels is the only mechanism that could work as designed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('alokin', 'B')ut this standard drives house prices up, it's lot of detail work and has to be done neatly.
It does, but over the life of the house it costs less than if there wasn't as much insulation and higher energy bills.
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby MrBill » Tue 19 Feb 2008, 06:33:53

yesplease wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') disagree regarding CAFE because historically, car companies have simply sold vehicles that avoid it via some sort of loophole. Even though CAFE has been around for over two decades, the American fleet average is still right around 17mpg because for every auto sold that falls under CAFE, there was an SUV/pickup that didn't have to comply with CAFE and brought the actual fleet average down drastically. IMO, taxation of fuels is the only mechanism that could work as designed.


Sorry, my mistake, I am talking about improving the fuel efficiency of 90% of the cars made, not official CAFE standards whereby car companies fulfill the rule of the law, while openly breaking the spirit of those conservation efforts. The gains are made when 90% of the cars are more fuel efficient, not by 10% of the cars being super-efficient. CAFE is a political exercise much like throwing a few million dollars at a multi-billion dollar problem. Spittle on a hot stone.
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby bodigami » Sat 23 Feb 2008, 01:22:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'G')reat article!

I can't wait to see what the plug-in hybrid market is going to look like in 2010/2011 when Toyota joins the party. It's nice to see a corporation planning for the future.


You mean a future longer than next quarter? yeah, that's nice...
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby bodigami » Sat 23 Feb 2008, 01:48:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'T')esla are using the revenue from the sale of the roadsters to build a more affordable model, codenamed BlueStar, to sell for ca. $30K, available in 2012.


neat, just in time to ride the apocalypsis :lol:
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Re: Bloomberg Markets: the end of the oil age

Postby TreebeardsUncle » Wed 24 Feb 2010, 19:33:15

This is relevant.

The link is http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/In ... ?blog=1680.

The entire hummer line is being discontinued.


GM to shut down Hummer business
The move comes after a deal to sell the business to a Chinese company falls apart.
Posted by Charley Blaine on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 4:02 PM
General Motors said today it will wind down its Hummer SUV line after failing to complete a deal to sell the brand to China's Sichuan Tengzhong Heavy Industrial Machinery Co.

"We are disappointed that the deal with Tengzhong could not be completed," John Smith, GM vice president of corporate planning and alliances, said in a statement.

•Check out auto insurance rates
The Hummer is a large SUV that was modified from a U.S. Army vehicle that was very visible during the 1991 Persian Gulf War. It came to personify big, gas-guzzling vehicles.

But its popularity crashed when gasoline prices began to soar.

"GM will now work closely with Hummer employees, dealers and suppliers to wind down the business in an orderly and responsible manner," Smith said.

A source briefed on the situation said Tuesday that Beijing had rejected a bid by Tengzhong, an industrial equipment maker based in Sichuan province, to buy the money-losing brand from GM.

GM said it will continue to honor warranties and provide service support and spare parts to current Hummer owners.

The company did not say how many employees may be affected by the shutdown.
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