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Page added on August 14, 2017
Which EROI do we need to collect berries?
The question of EROI – the energy return on energy invested – is raging nowadays, with some people insisting that a civilization cannot exist without an EROI of at least variously estimated values, at least 10 and higher (image on the right by Charles Hall). And that is said to mean we absolutely need sophisticated technologies, such as nuclear, in order to survive.
Yet, this morning I had been collecting berries in the wood with my wife and wondering: ‘what is the EROI of what we are doing?’ A good EROI, I am sure. All you have to do is to walk in the woods, find the berries and pick them up (and watch your step, you don’t want to fall into a thorn bush). I can’t make an exact calculation, but it is something that our hunter-gatherer ancestors would surely do and if we are here today – their descendants – it means it was an effective strategy for survival. Collecting what you can find is an ancient and tested strategy that goes under the name of “gleaning” and it has accompanied humankind for millennia. It is a high-EROI strategy just because it is so simple: no tools, no laws, no hierarchy. And it works.
As I was collecting berries, I started thinking things. How to program a drone to collect berries, for instance. Sure: a perfect way to bring down the EROI of the whole thing to nearly zero. And to destroy the bushes forever. Humans are like this, with their attempt of “improving” things they always pull the levers in the wrong direction. And that means making things more complicated, needing more and more energy to keep them running, and then complaining that we don’t have enough.
Of course, with more than seven billion humans on this planet, it is hard to think that we can go back to gleaning to feed them all. But for how long we can trust the expensive, complex, delicate, and terribly inefficient enterprise we call “industrial agriculture”? I can’t say. What I can say is that collecting berries is a big satisfaction, as you see below.
39 Comments on "Which EROI do we need to collect berries?"
rockman on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 2:07 pm
“But for how long we can trust the expensive, complex, delicate, and terribly inefficient enterprise we call “industrial agriculture”?”
Inefficient??? I doubt the countless folks who would starve to death without industrial ag would consider “inefficient”.
Boat on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 3:23 pm
There is a reason 95 percent of the US no longer works on the farm like they did in 1900. Tech and incremental improvements.
Cloggie on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 4:35 pm
I bet my last bottom euro that mr Bardi is not living on berries, nor that 60 million Italians can ever be fed by berries or other wild food alone. The berry picking was family entertainment and nothing else.
Mr Bardi must really let go of this renewable eroi=10 story. Offshore North Sea wind or thin film solar have much higher value and will further increase over the coming decades when technology is further improved.
Davy on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 4:49 pm
Rock, it is not very efficient long term. Modern Ag is destructive and requires constant resupply. That is not “Efficient” in the true meaning of the term. It is extremely efficient becuase it can be destructive and has constant resupply as its basis. Take away that basis and it is completely inefficient.
Yadayada on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 4:53 pm
Modern agriculture could be considered inefficient with the high calorie input required, in the form of diesel fuel and gas based fertilizer, to produce food calories.
JuanP on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 5:43 pm
My wife and I pick berries all the time, mostly mulberries. Some Mulberry trees are everbearing here in South Florida. They are our favorite fruit trees, though not our favorite fruits. We have Mulberries at the local organic urban farm where we rent land and at several of the gardens we visit. I love taking a water break under them and picking the berries and eating them right there. I plant them wherever I can whenever I get a chance.
Boat on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 6:17 pm
Davy on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 4:49 pm
Modern Ag is destructive and requires constant resupply. That is not “Efficient” in the true meaning of the term. It is extremely efficient becuase it can be destructive and has constant resupply as its basis.
Compared to when. Modern Ag in many cases terrace where land once washed away. Tech like no till planting also conserve land. Of course the digital age brings better control over fertilizer, water, and bug control. New strains of seed also create less stress with higher yields.
Who is better positioned to use the science available. The small budget farmer or modern Ag that helps feed the world and save the soil.
Boat on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 6:27 pm
Texas grows great black berries. Next summer will be year 3 for 7 bushes. The bushes are close to being filled out so I anticipate many future cobblers.
Makati1 on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 6:51 pm
Boat, we agree on this one. Small farming can grow a lot more on less ‘productive’ land than any ‘conventional’ farmer. Permaculture is perfect for such places and that is what we are doing on our farm. No crops that have to be planted in rows. We have cassava, pineapple, banana, coconut, coffee, chocolate, dates, cashews, tomatoes, bush beans, etc. Any plant requiring a winter are not possible to grow at the farm. They are grown farther up the mountain, where it is cooler.
Makati1 on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 7:00 pm
Sorry Boat, I miss-read your comment. I do NOT agree that modern ag is better. It is self destructive and we are going to pay the price when the system breaks down. Right after oily products are less available. When you need constant input to make it work…and that input ends…better have the phone number of the local funeral home.
GregT on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 7:39 pm
“Texas grows great black berries.”
Same here in BC Boat! There are literally thousands of ‘bushes’ growing wild within a ten minute walk from the property. We hardly ever pick them anymore however, and just leave them for the birds and the bears. We have so many blueberries and raspberries out back, that we can’t even give them away fast enough. Even the dog picks them. Quite amusing to watch.
Apneaman on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 7:54 pm
boat, the fact is that all agriculture is destructive by nature. This is from day 1. Modern Ag is destructive in the same way and also has some destruction unique to modernity.
Largest-ever Gulf of Mexico dead zone (August 11, 2017)
For 32 years, scientists have tracked the oxygen-depleted waters that appear each summer in the Gulf of Mexico. This year’s dead zone is the biggest yet.
“Nutrients including nitrogen and phosphorous released into the Mississippi River watershed from sources such as farmland, fertilized lawns, and sewage treatment facilities can trigger algal blooms once they reach the warm, slow moving waters of the Gulf of Mexico. As the plentiful algal cells begin to die-off and decompose, this stimulates the growth and respiration of microorganisms, which use up most of the oxygen in the water. The low levels harm marine life such as fish and shellfish that need oxygen to survive. Years with heavy spring rains, such as 2017, typically lead to larger dead zones because more nutrients get flushed into the marine ecosystem than in dry years.”
I fail to see how modern AG “saves the soil”. I thought modern AG increased the speed and scale of soil loss. If I’m missing something feel free to bump me hip.
Generating three centimeters of top soil takes 1,000 years, and if current rates of degradation continue all of the world’s top soil could be gone within 60 years, a senior UN official said on Friday.
About a third of the world’s soil has already been degraded, Maria-Helena Semedo of the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) told a forum marking World Soil Day.
The causes of soil destruction include chemical-heavy farming techniques, deforestation which increases erosion, and global warming.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/only-60-years-of-farming-left-if-soil-degradation-continues/
boat, give me a shout when that cobbler is read. I’ll bring the ice cream.
Apneaman on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 7:55 pm
missed it.
http://earthsky.org/earth/largest-ever-gulf-of-mexico-dead-zone
Anonymous on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 8:07 pm
This dude is such a dumb fuck if he thinks subsistence gathering is high EROI.
Joe Clarkson on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 8:23 pm
Anonymous,
Please read the article again and several of the comments, both of which point out that EROI from gathering is far higher than from industrial agriculture.
The modern industrial agriculture and distribution system spends at least 10 Calories for every one that gets to the fork. We are eating huge quantities of oil and gas.
Modern agriculture is labor efficient because a few people with high energy thoughput machinery can grow a lot of food, but it is not energy efficient. Without oil and gas, most people will starve.
Bardi is just pointing this out, which is not dumb at all.
LetStupidPeopledDie on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 9:48 pm
How complicated is it for Ugo to look at the energy content of 100 g of berries and subtract the energy needed to collect these berries.
100 g of strawberries contain 32 calories.
https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/strawberries?portionid=58707&portionamount=100.000
Let’s say the energy needed to collect these strawberries is equal to walking one kilometer.
Walking 1 KM = 30 calories of energy burn.
The net energy gain for collecting theses strawberries is 2 calories. Probably better not eating anything and preserve one energy and doing nothing. Sometime the best strategy is doing nothing..
This article is high school grade level. I guess subtraction is a difficult math topic that can only be done by engineers.
https://www.quora.com/How-many-calories-do-we-burn-walking-1-km
Sissyfuss on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 10:06 pm
Juan, I let a portion of my acreage go wild 15 years ago and I now possess a 40 ft mulberry tree that produces fruit at an astounding rate. And 10 yards away is 20 ft companion that is just beginning to produce. Didn’t have to lift a finger to become a mulberry kingpin.
Makati1 on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 10:38 pm
Let, I can pick 100g of blackberries in a few minutes or 100 grams of any berry if they are in patches wild or other. I have done it often in the wild. I will not have to walk 20 feet. Certainly not a kilometer.
If the choice is pick or starve, only a narrow minded engineer would say it is not worth it. Maybe engineers cannot think? Or don’t need to eat? Not to mention the pleasure of picking and eating. What ‘numbers’ do you attach to those actions? LMAO
Makati1 on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 10:40 pm
BTW Let, when TSHTF. those who can grow and pick berries and other foods will be able to survive. Engineers, not so much.
LetStupidPeopledDie on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 10:52 pm
There is a reason why the native American where eating buffalo, because there is energy in meat and fat. When the shit it the fan go nomadic and hunt. Move around all the time and avoid cold climate.
There is 897 calories in 100 g of animal fat.
https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/generic/animal-fat-or-drippings?portionid=55830&portionamount=100.000
and 300 calories in animal meat.
People that are staying in place and cultivate only vegetable will die.
LetStupidPeopledDie on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 10:56 pm
I forgot to add this about buffalo:
http://www.prairieedge.com/tribe-scribe/the-heart-soul-of-the-lakota-the-buffalo/
Makati1 on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 11:10 pm
Meat, LETSTUPID? What meat? All of the wild game will be dead in the first year. For instance, there are about 50,000 deer in my home state of PA today. There are 12M+ people also in PA.
IF YOU do the math, that is about 2 pounds (1 kilo) of venison per person. Or maybe a weeks worth of meat at best. And most wild animals hav a low fat content.
Now, tell me again why the ration of meat to veggies is important. Or maybe you didn’t notice that buffalo are about extinct in America as well as other large animals?
BTW: There are about 350,000 wild bison in the US today. There are about 325,000,000 humans in the US today. Do the math.
http://www.bisoncentral.com/history/publicherds.asp)
You better have a lot of veggies on hand…
LetStupidPeopledDie on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 11:14 pm
You are not too bright don’t you maktard. Now I understand why peole are calling maktard
GregT on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 11:36 pm
“There is a reason why the native American where eating buffalo, because there is energy in meat and fat.”
They say that the native Americans around these parts survived just fine for about 20,000 years before we showed up. There are no Buffalo here. They predominately ate fruits, nuts, greens, and berries, and supplemented their winter supplies with smoked salmon.
GregT on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 11:40 pm
Oh yah,
They weren’t nomadic.
Makati1 on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 11:41 pm
LETSTUPID, Wow! you dropped to Davy’s bottom feeding level so fast! Name calling when you cannot refute someone’s claim. Lack of intelligence? Can you do arithmetic? LMAO
LetStupidPeopledDie on Mon, 14th Aug 2017 11:44 pm
My point is this Ancient tribe had accessed to have some kind of fat. I could come from fish, buffalo and seal like Eskimo. The point I am trying to make is that ancient tribe had access to a food source with animal fat. They also used animal parts to build tool and shelter and clothing.
Ancient tribe were more nomadic and did not have this attachment to a specific location . When the conditions were not good, they moved around.
GregT on Tue, 15th Aug 2017 12:05 am
My youngest sister was a vegetarian, and a triathlete, at the same time, for twenty years. She did not consume animal fat, and still does not to this day. She is now 53.
GregT on Tue, 15th Aug 2017 12:14 am
The Haida ‘Indians’ made clothing out of cedar bark, and built their non-nomadic lodges out of wood. They did consume some meat, but their diet was predominately shoots, roots, berries, barks, and leaves.
Keith McClary on Tue, 15th Aug 2017 12:23 am
Ugo needs to look up:
Gleaning – Wikipedia
Gleaning is the act of collecting leftover crops from farmers’ fields after they have been commercially harvested or on fields where it is not economically profitable to harvest. It is a practice described in the Hebrew Bible that became a legally enforced entitlement of the poor in a number of Christian kingdoms.
LetStupidPeopledDie on Tue, 15th Aug 2017 12:33 am
Being thin doesn’t mean guaranteed longevity.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2285998/Fat-people-live-longer-brains-nourishment-stress-says-obesity-doctor.html
Bud Spence, big fat guy in a lot of movie in Italy guy died at 87 yo.
Charles Durning lived until 89 and Ernest
Borgnine to 95.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Durning
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Borgnine
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Spencer
GregT on Tue, 15th Aug 2017 12:46 am
“Being thin doesn’t mean guaranteed longevity.”
Neither does being fat. It’s mostly about the luck of the draw.
Cloggie on Tue, 15th Aug 2017 3:31 am
Bringing up anecdotal evidence is no evidence. My favorite German chancellor Helmut Schmidt smoked constantly and made it to 95. Hence smoking is healthy.lol
What you need is large numbers to make valid scientific statements:
http://www.everydayhealth.com/columns/jared-bunch-rhythm-of-life/obesity-paradox-weight-longevity/
A little bit of overweight (“love handles level”) at old age is optimal for longevity. Being thin at old age is NOT good. A bit of fat is like having a little money in your bankaccount for a rainy day.
Davy on Tue, 15th Aug 2017 5:03 am
I fast 2 days a week. I have been doing this for 10 years now. I lift weights twice a week. This is not iron pumping it is primarily to keep my tone. I can’t afford to get injured in my line of work so I keep my body toned. I run because of the importance of getting the heart rate up. My permaculture lifestyle is active but I do not get my heart rate up at it. This is why I run. I eat good and bad but it averages out to decent. I eat more good than bad but still American culture has too many temptations like ice cream and a good greasy burger. When I eat well it is exceptional but to be truly exceptional I need to stop the bad and I have not. I don’t drink and I don’t drug. This may be why I eat badly sometimes. A man needs one vice. I rarely take an ibuprofen for a headache because I try to avoid medicine. That is my physical routine.
Mentally I read and I am here challenging my mind. I avoid TV and radio because it is mental junk food. We engage in debate and mental battles here on this board and that keeps me mentally hardened which is especially important as we age. I miss a few years ago when this board was more a learning experience. People actually talked prepping. Now it is mainly attacking, bragging, blaming, and complaining. Yea, I am involved but for me it is self-defense. I am an American with a backbone and all those who hate American can’t stand that. I run a small business that requires spreadsheets and business skills. I have a library I fill with books that I feel are important for a coming age of decline and decay. That is the mental side of my routine.
I have a good family life and love my work. Mix those together with a good mental and physical routine and I feel healthy. I also understand these things can be gone tomorrow. Mental and physical health is a constant battle. Agricultural work is dangerous. A good life is precarious. I have had near death experiences and I have had low points in my life. The important point to me is I learned from them. I made tough decisions and moved on. Some of these decisions were very humbling. I am not here to say I am right or wrong. I am saying it works for me and I offer it to some of you that it may work for you. I tend to be modest and egalitarian so if the above looks like bragging it is not. It is the near death experiences and low points that make me modest and understanding. I also believe in being open with others and offering them what works for me. I am here hoping some of you offer what work for you. What I really dislike is those of you who think their way is the only way and try to tell me I should live like they do. Or some of you who just think you are great and everyone else is stupid. We are in dangerous times and what will help save us is community. Try to enhance community where you can.
deadlykillerbeaz on Tue, 15th Aug 2017 6:06 am
The Native Americans ran buffalo off of cliffs to maximize the kill. Cattle replaced buffalo after Buffalo Bill started shooting. Buffalo bones were ground to fertilizer. Beef is better.
Took a while to butcher the bison and render hides, but it got done.
Then you can seam together a teepee, paint some glyphs on the outside for fun.
After paleface got a foothold in murka, the natives got restless.
The Cree captured Sioux and sold them into slavery. Sioux slaves were bought and sold in Montreal, a slave trading mecca. Slave auctions meant you were going to work for free.
The Choctaw would track down runaway slaves and made a good living at it. The Cherokee had as many as twenty thousand slaves they owned and brought them with them on the Trail of Beers. After they reached Oklahoma, some managed to runaway. Lots of ground to cover way out west.
After the shtf, expect a return of slavery.
The first plantation owner in the Antebellum South was an Angolan.
Some slaves did gain freedom,but would return to slavery because it was too difficult to be free.
After the shtf, Manhattan will be empty. EROEI won’t matter.
You’ll have to find something to eat, concrete and steel aren’t that edible. Gathering berries won’t be possible.
You’ll have to go to Maggie’s farm.
http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com
Natives in the Amazon will survive, inhabitants in Siberia will survive. If you live in the northern regions of Alaska and The Yukon, you’ll probably be ok.
Meltdowns like Chernobyl won’t effect those places all that much.
Humans can’t go extinct, dogs and cats would die of loneliness.
rockman on Tue, 15th Aug 2017 7:29 am
Yum, yum, yum. Berries are the Rockman’s favorite fruit. BTW anyone not getting a substantial portion of their caloric intake from those “inefficient” commercial production efforts (ag, cattle, pig, chicken, sea food) please raise your hand.
IOW all those who are pissing and moaning about commercial production who are not dependent upon it to some meaningful degree. Not much different then the folks who complain about GHG emissions and yet create them (or have someone else do so for their benefit) everyday to some degree. Sorta like the old joke of just being just “a little pregnant”. “Yes, I’m a hero even though I contribute to climate change…but not as much as others.”
Seems like we have a number of folks here who are “just a little pregnant”. LOL.
paultard on Tue, 15th Aug 2017 7:50 am
i oppose to permacutists visions because it sounds heaven gate-ish. i also did not get my delivery of earth worms that have been busy producing food in modern ag’s expansive fields.
i also oppose this sleight of hand to get women do the heavy lifting in slave plantations. in traditional societies men do diplomacy, women do the heavy lifting.
we need to move to a more honest society
_____________________ on Tue, 15th Aug 2017 8:12 am
There are too many species, too much competition thus too much scarcity. Get rid of useless weed species and there is abundance. Why did animals in the past were so big? More food available due to less species and competition
peakyeast on Thu, 17th Aug 2017 4:53 am
“What EROEI to collect berries?”..
It is not only about EROEI – the fertile area you need to be able to forage year round and get enough for a viable diet.. That is also a problem.
Try taking arable land and divide it with amount of humans. You will notice there is hardly any space. And certainly not space enough to have some butterflies or other animals around.