Farmer George — Growing Animals Like Grandpa Did

21 Comments on "Farmer George — Growing Animals Like Grandpa Did"

Plantagenet on Mon, 20th Apr 2015 6:17 pm 



You wouldn’t want to build cars like your Grandad did, or do surgery or build buildings or build a phone system or design woman’s bathing suits like your grandad did.

Why would you want to farm like your grandad did? Doesn’t it make more sense to take advantage of every bit of modern scientific knowledge and technology you can?

Makati1 on Mon, 20th Apr 2015 8:08 pm 



Plant, there is little science or tech that is useful for healthy farming. Obviously you don’t know what you are talking about. The last useful ‘improvement’ was contour plowing and crop rotation. Both before your time.

If you call drugging animals with hormones to make them grow faster or bigger is an improvement, you obviously didn’t have a daughter become a woman at age 10 or need antibiotics that no longer work because we have become adjusted to the ones in our food.

And don’t even go into chemical/petrocarbon or GMO farming as that is already collapsing and will totally disappear in the coming years.

You have probably never eaten a steak from a truly ‘free range’ steer or you would know that tech is NOT an improvement, except for the farmer’s bottom line. And even that is disappearing, fast.

steve on Mon, 20th Apr 2015 8:12 pm 



Plant we have really screwed up the animal husbandry system….check out Vice on HBO and see how are antibiotics are no longer effective. The overuse of them have created problems that will likely kill millions of humans and more…

Plantagenet on Mon, 20th Apr 2015 9:11 pm 



@ Makati

Your claim that the “last useful improvement” to farming was contour plowing and crop rotation is silly. Crop rotation goes back 6000 years and contour plowing at least 3000 years.

Its silly enough to want to farm “like grandad did” but if it was up to you people would be limited to plowing with wooden sticks.

Makati1 on Mon, 20th Apr 2015 10:28 pm 



Plant, your twisted mind is trying to prove me wrong by stupid comments of no merit. ‘Wooden sticks’ may be all that is available to those few who may survive the coming species bottleneck. Those ‘sticks’ fed the world for centuries and were as sophisticated as the modern steel plows that do the same thing. Better do some research before you open your mind and prove your lack.

The only beneficial changes to farming is the genetic breeding of a few new plant species and the understanding of how the total system works. Not the genetically modified by other means poisonous frankin-foods of current fad.

Tech will mean nothing when there is no transportation system able to move billions of tons of chemicals all over the world. At that point, the manure made by the farm animals themselves will determine productivity. And that day is fast approaching, no matter how much you deny it.

GregT on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 12:58 am 



lil planter said:

“Why would you want to farm like your grandad did? Doesn’t it make more sense to take advantage of every bit of modern scientific knowledge and technology you can?”

Because lil planter, what grandad ‘did’ was sustainable, modern human technology is not. We are killing our only planet with our ‘modern scientific knowledge’.

We apparently don’t know jack shit. Plowing fields was a very bad idea to begin with, which has only led to even bigger very bad ideas.

Plantagenet on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 1:18 am 



@Makatai

Your belief that farmers should be forced to give up all modern technology is silly. You use a computer….why shouldn’t farmers also be allowed to use a computer? And a tractor? And milking machines? And drone technology, And GPS technology, etc. etc.

Dude—don’t be afraid of technology. Science is a good thing. Knowledge is power.

@gregt

Your fantasy that “Grand dad” farmed in a sustainable fashion is ridiculous. Have you never heard of the “dust bowl?” Don’t you know that soil erosion during farming was a problem century after century, and many agricultural areas were completely destroyed by Grandad’s ignorance of good farming practices, resulting in soil erosion? Soil erosion is a horrendous problem that is best dealt with using modern techniques and technologies.

And then you don’t even want people to use plows because its a “bad idea”? Sheesh…..how do expect people to plant their crops if they don’t use plows? With their fingernails?

Davy on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 2:28 am 



Folks, production Ag will be necessary for survival but we must also try to transition out of the unhealthy and unsustainable arrangement. Global distribution of vast monocultures and industrial food processing is just not going to last. A shaky JIT food production and distribution system supported by an unstable financial system is truly dangerous with 7BIL. We can’t just transition off this system without mass deaths.

Permaculture food production is the key to a transition. I personally believe we are too far gone for a transition within BAU but we should put down the seeds for those who survive the descent. This coming descent could be a long drawn out affair. If that is the case then we will need a hybrid affair of the remnants of production agriculture along with more ecologically sound permaculture. We are going to have less with a future of less. We are going to have to have systems that can work with nature not against her. It is only through working with nature and the natural renewables that we can manage our food production for a population that likely will be in overshoot territory for a generation. Permaculture will not produce more but it is more productive in a total process approach.

I personally am practicing permaculture with management intensive grazing. You rotate animals in a managed way to maximize grass production and nutrient conservation of the process of grazing with herbivories. The animals put the nutirents back on the land in a dispersed and healthy manner. Less inputes are needed to replace what is lost. Water is conserved. The goal is reduce the need of expensive equipment and AG products. I am working on a system that incorporate goats and cattle. I have a problem with weeds and brush and the goats will manage this. I have good grass that the cattle can manage.

I am an animal lover and tree huger. I am treating my animals with care and respect. This is a way of life and spirituality. If we are going to transition at all out of BAU with some humanity left we are going to have to embrace nature but also accept we cannot just dump modern agriculture. Modern agriculture will die a natural death so we need these alternative systems to take up the slack. We need a significant proportion of our population returning to the land and this return will have to be back to the preindustrial practices. I have no idea if this return can happen but that is what must happen.

I have no idea what kind of collapse is ahead or when but I do know from personal experience production AG is not resilient. I had a 1000 acre corn and soy farm in 2000 for 4 years. Any disruptions in a complex energy intensive process grinds things to a halt immediately. If the diesel delivery does not show up that is it folks. The same is true for the seed man. Permaculture with preindustrial practices is much more sustainable and resilient because it works with nature not against it. Drought, floods, and pest are the biggest issue with permaculture but those are also the issues of industrial AG.

I know 7BIL people cannot eat without modern industrial AG. If there is some way to manage the descent of modern AG along with a declining population that would be the key to the generation of excess deaths over births that is in the pipeline. We have to embrace permaculture along with a hybrid utilization of the remnants of industrial AG if we want to prevent mass death of unimaginable proportions. We are at the cusp of a shift in food production we best get our shit together and quick.

Makati1 on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 6:10 am 



Plant … Mother Nature has seeded the planet for millions of years without a plow. The same methods today are called ‘permaculture’. Turning the soil is a bad idea as it kills all of the millions of living things in a cubic foot of dirt and allows all of the minerals to leech out and flow away with the erosion. New is usually not better.

Davy on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 7:27 am 



Mak, you need to be more descriptive. While I agree your idea of not disturbing the soil has some merit in a situation of intensive agriculture. It has been done as well as focusing cultivation of perennials instead of annuals. Soil disturbance can be managed with the proper procedures and additives. This is the reason we use manure and compost. The Amazonians were very successful with building soil fertility with biocar. Personally I think a variety of activities is smart because all have advantages and disadvantages.

IMA, succession is a very important aspect to nature whether that be in the form of fire on the prairie and forests, the meandering of a stream in drought and floods, and semi-nomadic hunter-gathers creating food plots. When semi-nomadic hunter-gatherers disturbed soils it was usually small and in rotations over long periods. Succession and destructive change is essential in nature for systematic evolution.

I practice successional activities here on my farm and the quail and rabbits love it. The fields thrive with disturbance. I am currently burning the native grasses. I am doing this in dispersed plots over two months creating a mosaic of habitat. The native grasses are on a 2 or 3 year fire schedule depending on weed and sprout infestation. I have brushy areas I knock back every 4 or 5 years to keep those areas in a successional situation. Animals love bare earth so I keep the troughs of the soil conservation terraces disked.

farmlad on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 7:44 am 



Thanks to what are most likely some new innovations I can do a way better job of farming in a more sustainable way. First one on the list is the internet; it has given me access to vast amounts of information, which has opened my mind to so much that I could never have figured out in my lifetime. This has resulted in a small financially viable, grazing based operation. So now I have soils that are increasing in carbon which is decreasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. My pastures are loaded with flowering species providing food for piles of insects. and where i was never able to find them before now the soil is filling up with earthworms which are doing a better job of aerating the soil than any man made tillage tool. Were it not for the internet all this would not be happening on my farm. Innovation #2 is the electric fence that allows me to do rotational grazing while I can be doing other things. and the polyethelene pipe that carries water to anywhere in the pastures is greatly appreciated. Once BAU comes to an end we can carry on without these innovations, as long as the knowledge of the principles remain. though we would need to replace the fence and water lines with a group of herders, with dogs, combining herds. ” the herders would be needed anyways to protect the livestock from 2 legged predators.”

Davy on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 8:08 am 



Farm, well put and what I am doing also. I believe you are in Michigan if I remember correctly. Good luck with your exciting endeavors.

farmlad on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 8:20 am 



Farming like Grandpa has turned the cradle of civilization into a desert. and pretty much all the other brittle environments are in some degree of desertification. and depleted all the naturally fertile soils of their natural fertility in the Non brittle environments.

Modern agriculture, starting with the green revolution with it use of chemicals, and fossil fuel energy, has only expedited to exponentially increase the rate of soil destruction.

Case in point; Within the space of about 15 years the area in South America where I grew up was turned from predominately jungle to mostly modern chemical agriculture. And now with the depletion of their soils they are having all kinds of pest issues which require them to use ever increasing amounts of chemical pesticides. Last time I visited the area I asked a farmer, On average How often does a field need to be sprayed and He figures that they are putting on more than 12 applications per year on any given field.

farmlad on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 8:27 am 



Yes Davy I get on here a lot to learn about the oil situation but when it comes to farming sometimes I can’t keep quiet. even though I realize my writing skill are more like 7th grade level. Best wishes to you and yours.

Davy on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 10:19 am 



Farm, glad to have you here. Farming is the most critical of our collapse mitigation and adjustment activities we need your input.

dohboi on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 11:12 am 



In any case, grass fed cannot supply the world with meat, certainly not at anything like the level of meat eating of the average American. Not enough grassland in the world for that.

Most people have to be mostly vegetarian/vegan most of the time, just as has always been the case through all of history before about 50 years ago.

Davy on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 11:54 am 



Doh, true, but there is considerable land not suitable for row crop production. IMA veggies can only supply a portion of our dietary needs. IMA veggies cannot be grown at the level needed to feed the world. Grains are required for that.

Makati1 on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 8:15 pm 



There are ~1 billion cattle on the planet at any one time. The grains that feed them would feed about 3 billion more humans. Do the math.

Davy on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 8:54 pm 



Makster, it don’t work like that as much as you would like to believe it would so it could save your Asia. It takes economics to produce and deliver food. There is more to it than saying no more grain feed animals and all that grain is to be eaten by humans. That is simplistic thinking that serves no purpose.

3BIL people are almost another Asia. How crazy is that Makster believing we can have another Asia on our already crowded planet?

Makati1 on Tue, 21st Apr 2015 10:56 pm 



Easy, Davy, the ships carrying plastic junk to America can easily carry grain to the world. All it takes is for the Us to totally collapse so there is peace again. The rest of the world can manage OK without America. Not the other way around.

Davy on Wed, 22nd Apr 2015 7:32 am 



Makster, you are talking agenda not math and science. If the US collapses your Asia will come apart in food and liquid fuel crisis. You fail to see the US is a significant exporter of the foundational commodities of grains to the global economy. You fail to see a functional BAU requires US participation. Without a functional BAU Asia cannot import all those vitals to support your population overshoot.

Why would we ship grain to the world if we are struggling to feed ourselves? We surely will not want your cheap Asian junk. You Asians can’t eat plastic and you will have little to do but eat each other when you can’t export your plastic junk. Master your anti-American agenda makes you look ridiculous trying to justify an Asia in gross overshoot to carrying capacity.