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Page added on August 18, 2017
Electric cars may take over Indian roads by 2020
Even as Indians take to the road like never before, consumers could well be buying their last petrol or diesel car, according to a US-based expert. Using the country’s quick adaptation of smartphones as a model, Tony Seba, lecturer of Entrepreneurship, Disruption and Clean Energy at Stanford University, says electric vehicles could bring about a similar massive transportation disruption in India as early as 2020.
What’s more, he predicts that internal combustion vehicles which run on petrol and diesel could be wiped out globally in as little as 8-10 years. Seba’s warning comes as passenger vehicles in India in financial year 2016-17 grew at 9.24 per cent, the fastest rate of growth in six years, largely on the backs of utility vehicles, most of which run on diesel, which is much cheaper than petrol.
“Remember at the time of Smartphones India was the country which was the quickest to adopt the smartphone culture. In India the transport disruption can happen sooner,” Seba told WION in an exclusive interview.
The benefits, he points out, will be enormous, both in terms of financial savings as well as air pollution levels.
Seba estimates India stands to save as much as 6000 dollars a year per family as transportation cost will be 10 times cheaper with electric vehicles. As a nation, too, India, which imports about 80 per cent of its crude requirements, will stand to save on its import bill.
As for pollution, electric vehicles emit about 95 per cent less pollutants compared to cars that run on fossil fuels.
“I was in Mumbai and Delhi a couple of months back and the pollution there is insane, especially in Delhi,” Seba said. “(With electric vehicles) The emissions will come down and health wise, it will be very important.”
He also foresees a situation where more people will rely on cab aggregators like Ola and Uber instead of owing and driving a car.
“In totality an owner on average uses four per cent of his car, Ola and Uber use 40 per cent. Hence, instead of parking, the latter will be moving around. This means if they are EVs (Electric Vehicles), there will be 70 per cent fewer cars,” Seba said.
The logic, he says, is simple. “When we use electric vehicles, the cost per km goes down 10 times as compared to combustion vehicles. Every time there is a difference of 10 times in prices, disruption happens and for the vehicle sector it will take 10 years for disruption to happen,” he points out.
Besides, electric vehicles have a working life that is three times that of a petrol or diesel car. They also have only 20 moving parts, compared to 100 for regular cars.
“Only EVs will survive,” he said. “Even if the petrol and diesel vehicles try they will not.” In fact, he goes so far as to say that by 2020-2021, no new combustible vehicles will be sold. With fewer individuals owning or buying cars, the resale value of cars will also go down resulting in less purchase of such cars.
Oil prices, too, will play a part. Globally, he predicts, oil will hit peak demand by 2020 at 100 million barrels a day and by 2030, it will dip to 70 million barrel per day. Consequently, prices will crash by $20-25 a barrel and result in oversupply of 2 million barrels per day.
69 Comments on "Electric cars may take over Indian roads by 2020"
Davy on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 6:30 am
http://www.crcs.k12.ny.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Cheerleading-Image.jpg
https://sep.yimg.com/ay/famousfoods-store/marshmallow-fluff-5-lb-foodservice-size-9.jpg
Antius on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 6:43 am
In India, an electric car is basically a coal powered car.
Coal burning emits about twice as much CO2 per joule of heat as gasoline, but a coal power plant is 40% efficient, whereas a petrol engine is 20% efficient. So, it would have about the same CO2 emissions as a regular petrol car, but will cost more to buy and those emissions will take place at a power station rather than at the exhaust pipe.
You have to ask yourself, what is the point of that?
Davy on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 6:44 am
Right Antius and I call it fake green or green washing.
Cloggie on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 6:55 am
Well, a car maybe a big word:
http://tinyurl.com/yargntrb
Cloggie on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 6:56 am
You have to ask yourself, what is the point of that?
Removing the smog away from the cities into the global sewer aka the atmosphere.
dave thompson on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 7:22 am
For Cloggie: http://euanmearns.com/worldwide-investment-in-renewable-energy-reaches-us-4-trillion-with-little-to-show-for-it/
dave thompson on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 7:34 am
More for you Cloggie: Solar panels are manufactured using hazardous materials, such as sulfuric acid and phosphine gas, which make them difficult to recycle. They cannot be stored in landfills without protections against contamination. They contain toxic metals like lead, which can damage the nervous system, as well as chromium and cadmium, known carcinogens that can leak out of existing e-waste dumps into drinking water supplies. http://canadafreepress.com/article/will-solar-power-be-at-fault-for-the-next-environmental-crisis
Antius on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 7:55 am
“But now the government subsidy bubble has burst completely, with 48 countries, including almost all of the world’s major economies, replacing feed-in tariffs with a competitive auction system and another 27 seriously considering doing so, according to the Energy Institute at Haas . Governments adopted competitive auctions in order to drive down renewable costs, and as shown in Figure 5 they have certainly succeeded in driving down the costs of wind and solar, which have historically accounted for the lion’s share of renewable energy investment.”
http://euanmearns.com/worldwide-investment-in-renewable-energy-reaches-us-4-trillion-with-little-to-show-for-it/
Oh dear. Global investment in renewable energy has tanked. The recent drop in prices is due to the industry being squeezed and the Chinese dumping cheap crap onto the market below manufactured cost. It has little to do with any underlying cost reductions in manufacturing and building the stuff.
This doesn’t surprise me, as I know from analysis of materials flow that renewables can never compete with nuclear or conventional fossil on EROI. They also depend upon cheap steel made from coal and natural gas burning CCGT to back them up. It isn’t good news. It suggests that the next financial crisis will wipe out the solar and wind industry. We will need to revive nuclear power in a big way and develop it into a safe high-EROI energy source that can replace the output from fossil fuels. But we have wasted so much time on the wrong energy path that I wonder if there is enough time left. Global GDP has peaked and we are past peak energy. I can bask in the glory of being right about this whilst I watch my children and grandchildren starve to death.
Davy on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 8:09 am
Antius, I have been saying this now for going on two years that the renewable price reductions crowed about here are partially artificial reductions from market distortions like gov subsidies and Chinese malinvestment overcapacity. It is also true real progress has been made. Like most human endeavors this is a mix bag of results.
Cloggie on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 8:16 am
http://canadafreepress.com/article/will-solar-power-be-at-fault-for-the-next-environmental-crisis
Canada Free Press. Because without America there is no free world.
LOL
Some dumb right-wing Canadian site that blows up details with solar panel production in order to achieve the desired result: find the excuse to go back to fossil and nuclear and drive SUVs.
They contain toxic metals like lead, which can damage the nervous system, as well as chromium and cadmium, known carcinogens that can leak out of existing e-waste dumps into drinking water supplies.
You are not supposed to lick your panels clean. Do I have to tell you everything?
Global GDP has peaked and we are past peak energy.
America needs 222 units of fossil fuel, Italy 123 units in order to generate a million GDP. Why don’t we all learn from Italy and do more with less energy. Start with bringing your SUV to the smelter.
https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2017/01/08/what-countries-are-the-most-energy-efficient/
We will need to revive nuclear power in a big way and develop it into a safe high-EROI energy source that can replace the output from fossil fuels.
Where would we be without dave and his insane advice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_uranium
At the rate of consumption in 2014, these reserves are sufficient for 135 years of supply.
Current global nuclear share energy mix: 5%
https://bravenewclimate.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/nnf1.png
If we scale that up to 100%, the reserves shrink to 135/20 = 7 years.
You see the problem here, super dave?
Fortunately, Antius has a solution at hand: we are going to set up a global plutonium economy, and scale up this Box of Pandora:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sellafield
Well at least if you can shove that through the throats of the public. In America nobody gives a fuck. In continental Europe the environment is taken slightly more serious than in North-America and you can forget about a plutonium society, the most toxic material ever produced. If you think that CO2 is bad, wait for plutonium, used on all continents.
But by all means, go ahead and further destroy your habitat. We in Eurasia have decided to do things differently.
Cloggie on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 8:23 am
Oh dear. Global investment in renewable energy has tanked.
It may have money-wise, but not kWh wise, due to the spectacular price decline. Try again.
Solar:
https://c1cleantechnicacom-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/files/2016/04/solar-growth.png
Wind:
http://www.gwec.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Global-Cumulative-Installed-Wind-Capacity-2001-2016.jpg
Oh no’s, look what’s happening to nuclear:
https://www.carbonbrief.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/global-capacity.jpg
Antius, Davy and low caps dave, the plutonium gang of three.
Well at least we have that one clear.
#RearGuardFight
Davy on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 9:13 am
Clog the raw numbers on ff units to GDP is another lame generalization. Countries like China and the US still have energy intenive industries that export. China is the manufacturing capital of the world and the world buys from it. The US exports lots of energy intensive liquid fuels and Ag products. You are so lame with your cherry picked unsupported comparisons.
GregT on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 9:43 am
“In continental Europe the environment is taken slightly more serious than in North-America.”
In continental Europe, that ship sailed about 200 years ago Cloggie. I would guess that there is more natural environment left in BC alone, to take slightly more serious, than there is in all of Europe.
GregT on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 9:45 am
And Cloggie, in BC, we aren’t in the process of covering what remains of the environment that we take seriously, in solar panels and wind farms.
Antius on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 9:46 am
Cloggie, after seeing what EU migration policies have done to places like Rotterdam, Paris and London, I am surprised that you trust these people to tell you the colour of an orange. After seeing what their agricultural policies have done to farming and their immigration policies have done to most European cities, I would not trust them to tell me the colour of anything. Apparently, you do still trust their energy policy. I am happy for you. It is good that you agree on something.
I do not pretend nuclear energy is the Holy Grail solution to all of our problems. There are no perfect solutions to anything in this world. But the use of fission power in some form or another has enough net energy return to prevent thermodynamic collapse of our society, if we can expand its use quickly enough. There will be hazards along the way. Plutonium is toxic yes. No one should consider making it part of their diet. There is always the slight risk of a nuclear accident yes. With the passive safety features of modern reactors this is a small risk indeed (1 in 1million years), though older reactors built in the 1970s and 1980s do have higher core damage frequency. There is proliferation risk. There is also nuclear waste. These are not non-issues, but they are problems that we have solutions for. Lunatics like the one in North Korea will find ways of building bombs whatever we do.
The good news is that 1kg of plutonium (a volume the size of a golf ball) can release as much energy as 1800tonnes of oil. About 20 tonnes of that stuff (locked up in the fuel of half a dozen large thermal breeder reactors) could supply the Netherlands with all of its electricity. A dozen of those reactors could supply literally all of the energy for your country – transport and heating included. All of it without a molecule of CO2 being released. The scary plutonium never really leaves the fuel of the reactor. In a unity breeding ratio reactor it is electro refined into new fuel and put back into the reactor.
Antius on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 9:49 am
“It may have money-wise, but not kWh wise, due to the spectacular price decline. Try again.”
Price decline, but apparently not cost decline. The price is lower because governments are paying less and the companies are getting squeezed. Hardly a sign of a healthy growing industry is it?
GregT on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 10:04 am
I think that it’s a fairly safe bet to say, if fossil fuels become problematic withinn the next decade or so, humans everywhere are going to need to learn how to live with a lot less of everything, including food, and water. Food and water are somewhat important for survival. Electricity? Not so much.
Cloggie on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 10:13 am
In continental Europe, that ship sailed about 200 years ago Cloggie. I would guess that there is more natural environment left in BC alone, to take slightly more serious, than there is in all of Europe.
Of course there is, it’s bigger and emptier. I was talking about government measures to combat climate change. Canadians put per capita more CO2 in the atmosphere than Europeans, regardless in how much space they have in BC. This is not to bash Canadians for it, it is about effort and intentions.
https://i.cbc.ca/1.3076047.1431709871!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_620/carbon-emissions-in-canada.jpg
(more than in 1990, EU 23% less)
Canada 13.5 ton/capita, Germany 9.2
Cloggie, after seeing what EU migration policies have done to places like Rotterdam, Paris and London, I am surprised that you trust these people to tell you the colour of an orange.
I don’t trust them one bit. But the EU folks are the same as those in The Hague, Berlin or London: vassals of the US empire. What I do trust is Eastern Europe and Russia, because they were not members of the US empire (for too long) and now put up serious resistance against the Soros agenda. And the old guard Adenauer/de Gaulle, Schmidt/Giscard and Kohl/Mitterrand would never have allowed what Merkel did. Merkel is the worst nightmare.
Regarding energy… let’s agree on that renewables will be a considerable part of the future energy mix. We seem to agree that 40% renewable is manageable, leaving “us” the task to come up with a viable storage solution by the time the EU has reached the 40% level. But maybe we should be prepared to abandon the old comfortable “any demand will be met with corresponding supply” adagio and that we should be prepared to adapt demand to supply (car charging, washing machine, smelter, aluminium production). In the old glorious days of the British and Dutch empire we also had to wait for the wind to blow before we could conquer somebody.lol
As I have written before, in 1970 we in Holland had something like 50% less electricity to consume than now and we were quite happy then. Sometimes less is better.
Cloggie on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 10:32 am
Price decline, but apparently not cost decline. The price is lower because governments are paying less and the companies are getting squeezed. Hardly a sign of a healthy growing industry is it?
Don’t know about corporate cost, but in terms of energy it steadily progresses. And the big North Sea offshore boom is only in the early stages.
In fact they are busy setting up a new solar panel industry in high wage country Holland, because China can’t meet supply:
https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2017/05/23/spectacular-growth-solar-installations-in-the-netherlands/
GregT on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 10:36 am
“Canadians put per capita more CO2 in the atmosphere than Europeans, regardless in how much space they have in BC.”
No argument there. Canadians use more energy per capita than even Americans. Population density is however a very big part of the overall problem Cloggie. In Canada there are 3.7 people per sq Km, in Europe 33 people per sq Km. Almost 10 times as much. The total amount of CO2 being emitted into the environment is not a local problem, it is a global problem. CO2 per capita pales in comparison to the number of people in the world. If there were only 750 million people in the world, as opposed to 7.5 billion, greenhouse gas emissions would not be anywhere near as problematic. Neither would resource depletion, water scarcity, ecosystems degradation, fisheries collapse, ocean acidification, Climate Change, desertification, deforestation, or even food production.
GregT on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 10:46 am
I might add Cloggie,
Why the need for alternate electric power generation, if not to maintain population overshoot? A problem that IS eventually going to be taken care of through natural processes, and the longer that we attempt to maintain overshoot, the harsher those natural consequences will be.
Antius on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 11:07 am
“Why the need for alternate electric power generation, if not to maintain population overshoot? A problem that IS eventually going to be taken care of through natural processes, and the longer that we attempt to maintain overshoot, the harsher those natural consequences will be.”
If 90% of the world’s population were to obligingly starve to death in some kind of rapid and dramatic way, there really wouldn’t be much need for alt energy. The survivors could live a road warrior future for at least the rest of their lives using the stocks and conventional oil fields left over. Rick Grimes never had to bother about putting up windmills did he? 🙂
Realistically, it won’t happen that quickly.
GregT on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 11:09 am
So once again Cloggie,
Considering that the biggest problem that mankind faces, population overshoot, is the direct result of surplus energy production, how do you propose that adding even more surplus energy into the mix in anyway solves population overshoot, and all of the consequences associated with it? As pointed out by many here before, you fail to see the forest through the trees. Mankind faces a predicament Cloggie. Predicaments do not have solutions. Only uncomfortable choices.
GregT on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 11:16 am
“Realistically, it won’t happen that quickly.”
Realistically, it always happens that quickly when any animal goes into overshoot. The overshoot of the human animals will be no different. The ecosystem will reach a tipping point, after which our numbers will be rapidly reduced. Mankind is not in control over nature anymore than lemmings are. We are just much better at figuring out ways to destroy it faster.
Antius on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 11:59 am
I have always maintained on this board, that the only way that humanity can escape the sort of die-off that GregT envisages and grim Stone Age poverty for the survivors is to stop living on a finite ball of rock. Otherwise Liebig’s law will eventually get us in one way or another. If not energy, then food supply. If not food, then refined metals. Eventually, the sheer depletion of just about every resource that we use will kill us or grind us down to primitive Stone Age societies in one way or another. As long as everything we use is grown or dug out the ground on this finite, 8000-mile wide ball of rock, then literally nothing – not renewables, not nuclear power, Nano-technology, etc. will save us in the end. Even reducing our total numbers would only buy time on the peak-everything curve.
It will be tremendously difficult to leave this ball of rock. About as hard as it was for our fishy ancestors to first crawl out of the ocean onto the land. The Earth is quite big as planets go and its gravity is strong. Climbing out of that steep curve of space-time requires enormous force – the first stage rocket engines on the Saturn V had power output equivalent to half the power plants in North America – over 90 seconds that’s half as much energy as released by the Hiroshima bomb. Psychologically, it is difficult too. Many people refuse to entertain that it is even possible, because it sounds so fantastical.
I am not holding it up as a practical solution as such, but because it is literally the only way out that I can see that doesn’t involve mass starvation, universal poverty and soylent green. I am buoyed by the knowledge that we have already sent hundreds of people into Earth orbit and even have a permanently manned space station and have sent a dozen men to the moon. The recent efforts of Elon Musk have reduced the cost of accessing space by 1-2 orders of magnitude. Getting millions of people into space and living off of resources mined from the moon and asteroids would be task of Herculean proportions, but the technology at our disposal leads to me to believe that it is not impossible. Once we master the transition, the resources available from uninterrupted sunlight, the asteroids and ultimately the comets, are millions of times greater than those available to us on Earth.
The problem is that if we wait too long and slide too far down the depletion curves, it ends up becoming impossible, because we cannot afford the investments and capacity needed to get it started. At the moment, humanity is like a baby attempting to be born. The trauma of being born seems impossibly great and the outside world huge and terrifying. But the comfortable uterus that is the Earth, can no longer sustain us. In the words of John F Kennedy: “Space is there and we intend to climb it’.
rockman on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 12:35 pm
Didn’t read all comments so it may have already been pointed out.
In 2016 about 3 million vehicles were sold in India. The number of electric and hybrid vehicles sold are was about 1.1% nationally. So 2,970,000 ICE’s vs 30,000 alt vehicles. So in just 2 1/2 years “electric vehicles could bring about a similar massive transportation disruption in India as early as 2020.”. LMFAO!
And as pointed out: India is the world’s third largest producer and fourth largest consumer of electricity. Electric energy consumption in agriculture was recorded highest (17.89%) in 2015-16 among all countries.
And to just meet that growing demand (and not counting any increase in EV generated demand) India has 50,000 coal fired plants approved or under construction.
Yes indeed: India is a great model for reducing GHG emissions by going the EV route. LOL
Cloggie on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 12:59 pm
So once again Cloggie,
Considering that the biggest problem that mankind faces, population overshoot, is the direct result of surplus energy production, how do you propose that adding even more surplus energy into the mix in anyway solves population overshoot, and all of the consequences associated with it?
Who talks about adding energy production in Europe? The intention is to replace fossil fuel completely. The energy consumption per capita in both the US and EU declined since 2000:
http://energyfuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/india-per-capita-energy-consumption.png
I am not talking about “mankind”, that is one bridge too far. We can only begin in trying to get rid of ff in Europe. If that’s not enough, well too bad then.
As pointed out by many here before, you fail to see the forest through the trees. Mankind faces a predicament Cloggie. Predicaments do not have solutions. Only uncomfortable choices.
The very fact that I promote the best way forward (in my view) and as such look “optimistic” doesn’t main that I am not aware of “the forest”.
Yep, one of the uncomfortable solutions is that our own people are more important than others. Which means closing the gates against invaders from the South and a return to 19th century race relations, regardless of what George Soros has to say about it. We are not going to let Africa quadruple and next let them overrun us. We have a navy and we are going to use it. Not welcome, f* off.
GregT on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 1:56 pm
” Yep, one of the uncomfortable solutions is that our own people are more important than others”
If somebody had of built a wall several hundred years ago, to keep the more important ones contained, humanity wouldn’t be facing the predicaments that it faces today.
Cloggie on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 2:26 pm
Agree, America would not exist, Europe would still be souvereign, albeit even more overpopulated than today.
bobinget on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 2:32 pm
As is often the case, rockman beat me to it.
Although I’m a huge supporter of solar, EV’s, I have both, more then a billion reasons, ICE cars, trucks, buses, ships, trains and planes force this investor to hold tight to my few Canadian O&G companies.
Endlessly fascinating, high and low drama, exciting
wars, mass murder, starvation, genocide, digital manipulations, endless fakery, bottomless greed,
environmental degradation, right wing politics, energy trading has it all..
GregT on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 2:38 pm
“Europe would still be souvereign”
Europe likely would have gone extinct, over a hundred years ago.
Antius on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 2:53 pm
“Endlessly fascinating, high and low drama, exciting
wars, mass murder, starvation, genocide, digital manipulations, endless fakery, bottomless greed,
environmental degradation, right wing politics, energy trading has it all..”
Right wing politics emphasizes personal responsibility, self-reliance, personal ownership, loyalty towards ones own people and family. These are the values of civilization.
Left-wing politics is about group collectivism, group ownership, forced uniformity, supremacy of the state over the individual, powerful bureaucracy, suspicion of any private initiative, distain of private property, distain of family & ethnic loyalty (unless it is non-white), group politics (race, gender, sexuality, etc).
Right wing politics is good -it builds people, sustains traditions, builds nations. Left-wing politics is vile and parasitic. It exploits the antagonism between between the successful and unsuccessful. It encourages people to resent and steal, rather than build. It is the rot of civilization, like a fungus breaking it down.
Boat on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 3:58 pm
Right wing politics emphasizes personal responsibility, self-reliance, personal ownership, loyalty towards ones own people and family. These are the values of civilization.
Until one starts driving cars into crowds over whether a statue should be removed. Is that ok as one of your values?
The one good thing about the brainwashed idiot that drove the car, he will join thousands of idiots like minded in jail.
Antius on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 4:30 pm
“Until one starts driving cars into crowds over whether a statue should be removed. Is that ok as one of your values?
The one good thing about the brainwashed idiot that drove the car, he will join thousands of idiots like minded in jail.”
Actually, no. It is the complete absence of Conservative, right-wing political ideals that caused this. For nearly 60 years, white Americans have been sneered at by Marxist, left-wingers, denigrated, purposefully disadvantaged, told that their traditions and cultural heroes are irrelevant and offensive. They have had their flag banned, their statues torn down, their industries closed, their jobs given to foreigners in ‘positive discrimination’. Their country has been given away to foreigners.
After 60 years of that, some of them are angry enough to drive cars into crowds of Cultural Marxist heathen. This wasn’t caused by right-wing politics, it was caused by its absence. Oppress a people for long enough and they will respond with violence. Of course, evil begets evil. Driving that car into the heathen, is a propaganda coup to the vile Marxists.
Cloggie on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 5:23 pm
The one good thing about the brainwashed idiot that drove the car, he will join thousands of idiots like minded in jail.
You mean these thousands who were sitting at the backseat of that car?
Is btw already clear what really happened with that car? Did the driver really intentionally plow that car into that crowd of boat’s antifa buddies or did he react in panic, because he was attacked by that baseball mob?
Boat on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 5:37 pm
Antius
told that their traditions and cultural heroes are irrelevant and offensive. They have had their flag banned, their statues torn down, their industries closed, their jobs given to foreigners in ‘positive discrimination’
Which cultural heros are you talking about. What industries and what flag.
GregT on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 5:54 pm
Boat,
“Which cultural heros are you talking about. What industries and what flag.”
It’s your country, and you don’t know? Not the least bit surprising. Stick to something you actually have a clue about, like watching football games on TV, or boiling something to eat.
sidzepp on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 6:17 pm
Antius-I don’t think the label “primitive stone-age” is appropriate for our ancestors who did their best to avoid sabre-tooth tigers and develop tools and weapons to bring down Mastodons. Perhaps primitive is more of an apt term for the current inhabitants of this planet. We have the understanding of the harm that we are doing to the planet and we have the evidence to back it up. Yet politicians ignore it, the media down plays it and the average citizen is just concerned about keeping his or her head above water and attempting to see to the welfare of their children.
We are distracted by North Korea, Syria, Virginian monuments, and now Barcelona. Next week a new group of headlines will fill our minds with more fear-mongering. And in that week there will be the addition of another one and a half million inhabitants that need to be fed, clothed, and sheltered and they will be groomed to assist in the continued ravaging of the resources of this finite world.
Maybe our ancestors would not be able to navigate the web and tweet, but they somehow managed to understand their habitat and were able to reside successfully in it.
Makati1 on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 6:41 pm
sidzepp, you reminded me of the fact that North America huge animals like giant sloths that weighed over 1,000 pounds and moved slowly, and only to eat. Now we have humans inhabiting North America that only move slowly, and only to eat. About 100 million of them roam the fast food plains of the US. We call them ‘the obese’.
BTW: You might want to watch this this weekend. (2hours)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAnCOHCVjyU
You may never want to eat at a fast food place again. Especially McDonalds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAnCOHCVjyU
Super Size ME!” Run ar 1.25x speed.
GregT on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 7:06 pm
sidzepp,
Two thumbs up!
sidzepp on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 8:03 pm
Mak-thanks for the link, Gave up fast food decades ago. About once in a blue moon I break down and the gnawing pain in my belly reminds me why I gave it up.
JuanP on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 8:25 pm
Antius “If 90% of the world’s population were to obligingly starve to death in some kind of rapid and dramatic way, there really wouldn’t be much need for alt energy.”
There is no need to starve to death. Just refrain from breeding and get a Vasectomy like I did. It will take five minutes and is completely painless. If 90% of men got a Vasectomy this year things would start getting better immediately.
JuanP on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 8:32 pm
Greg, From a biological diversity perspective Europe is completely irrelevant. There are places in North America where there is more biological diversity in one hectare than in all of Europe. And there are places in South America where there is more biological diversity in one hectare than in all of North America. From a biological diversity point of view Europe is basically dead. If Europe where to disappear tomorrow it would be biologically insignificant.
sidzepp on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 8:47 pm
Boat-Who are your “own people?” Do you think that “right wing people” have a monopoly on “family values” and the other “values of civilization” you mention. I sure don’t follow the current crop of right-wingers in this country and I believe in the family, hard work, etc., etc.
I disagree with you about self reliance because that is a confusing term. Do you open the tap on you faucet in the morning for a cup a java? Do you drive down a road to go to the store or work? Do you send you children to schools that already exist? I could go on and on. The point is that these are examples of the collective collaboration of society in making that society function. Very few people on this planet approach self-reliance. Most live in communities that are a reflection of that community. They perform effectively if the large majority of the community participate in the functioning of that community; whether it be a neighborhood, town, county, state or province, or a nation.
My community is a mixture of black and white, a solid minority Latino, many service personnel, and some east Asian. Those are “My people” and they have as much right to exist as I do.
The poverty rate here is above the state and national average. There are a lack of jobs and the jobs that are being created are mostly low paying jobs. The health care is in a shamble, the education seems adequate though there are great disparities in the county between different towns within the county.
It is overwhelmingly Protestant, is Trump land, and the economy is dominated by defense and tourism. Farmers markets might have two or three vendors present. When the SHTF, there will be interesting times here. For my part I hope that my mixed neighborhood will work together to weather the storm, if not, oh well. I have had an adventuresome life and hope the same for my children and grandchildren and their children.
Right and left politics is BS. Each has an agenda based on fear and a winner take all mentality. We as a society need to move beyond hate and confrontation in the Herculean task of making our planet more habitable for our species and the countless others that live amongst us.
But I really don’t think that is going to happen.
Boat on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 9:09 pm
sidzepp on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 8:47 pm
I think you have me confused with the racists like clog, greggiet, annoymouse, antius and others. I like diversity and if America is exceptional, it is because of it. Go back to
Antius on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 2:53 pm
then reread my response.
Apneaman on Fri, 18th Aug 2017 10:06 pm
sidzepp, below is a short and interesting video in support of your debunking of the self reliance myth. It also explains how & why the humans, collectively, are a cancer. (pretty sneaky how I slide that in there eh?)
“Seventy thousand years ago, our human ancestors were insignificant animals, just minding their own business in a corner of Africa with all the other animals. But now, few would disagree that humans dominate planet Earth; we’ve spread to every continent, and our actions determine the fate of other animals (and possibly Earth itself). How did we get from there to here? Historian Yuval Noah Harari suggests a surprising reason for the rise of humanity.”
https://www.ted.com/talks/yuval_noah_harari_what_explains_the_rise_of_humans
Antius on Sat, 19th Aug 2017 2:49 am
“I disagree with you about self reliance because that is a confusing term. Do you open the tap on you faucet in the morning for a cup a java?”
Lets keep the definition simple. If you go through life paying your own way, earning what you spend, then you are self-reliant. If social security funds your existence, then you are not. Sometimes people fall on hard times, I accept that. But in my country, there exists an underclass, that have never worked and produce children for the social security income that it gives them. Those people are not interested in changing. They have contempt for everything, respect for nothing. If they need or want something, they do not look for ways to earn it or build it, they hold out their hands expectantly and if that doesn’t work, they steal it from someone else.
These people are the product of 70 years of Socialism in the UK. It has bred a parasitic underclass and stolen the money of decent hard working folk to do it.
Antius on Sat, 19th Aug 2017 3:34 am
Davy wrote: “Antius, I have been saying this now for going on two years that the renewable price reductions crowed about here are partially artificial reductions from market distortions like gov subsidies and Chinese malinvestment overcapacity. It is also true real progress has been made. Like most human endeavors this is a mix bag of results.”
I wonder what will happen to these alt energy companies when the next financial shock wave hits? According to Gail, it isn’t far away. Time to stock up on those little green biscuits.
https://ourfiniteworld.com/2017/07/02/the-next-financial-crisis-is-not-far-away/
Davy on Sat, 19th Aug 2017 4:21 am
“But in my country, there exists an underclass, that have never worked and produce children for the social security income that it gives them.”
Antius, I agree but I would mention there are significant amount of wealthy that produce children and do very little but consume. They breed more asshole self-righteous privileged parasitic people. It is generally those in the middle that do not have those luxuries that have been the backbone of the economy of most nations. It is the privileged rich and the socialized poor who are bleeding the economy. I would also add that many of the poor would work if they could and many of the rich would not because they can avoid work.
Cloggie on Sat, 19th Aug 2017 4:45 am
From a biological diversity point of view Europe is basically dead. If Europe where to disappear tomorrow it would be biologically insignificant.
So all this “vibrant diversity” trying to make it to Europe is in reality fleeing towards a corps? Good to know.
I’m glad that you gave us the green light to halt all development aid. Subsidizing your future enemies is never a good idea. And it gives those people the idea that we owe them a living. The “humanitarian” chain of “they breed, we pay”, needs to be broken.