California In Power Grid Emergency: “All Customers Should Expect 14 Days Without Power”

70 Comments on "California In Power Grid Emergency: “All Customers Should Expect 14 Days Without Power”"

Davy on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 12:29 pm 



I have been talking about this for years now. Our grid because of its nature as centralized and covering large regional areas is setting itself up for instability. Economic actions that are not necessarily helpful to stability are taking place. IOW people are seeking personal profits at the public’s expense with decisions that may not be helpful to grid stability.

Grid instability is a feature of the collapse process. It is coming to all of us. The reasons will be varied and before long brown out will be common. We will then be having unexplained blackouts because once the grid destabilizes there will be times when even the authorities won’t know why failure occurred.

You can prep for these situation but don’t expect to do it over night. Enough solar to power some lights and a frig is a good idea. Having a wood stove is a wise choice. Long shelf life food is wise. I could go on and on but all these prep items are for the basics and reflect a failure of the basics from our economy. Once the grid destabilizes the end will be approaching. You can’t have an unstable grid and expect to have a healthy economy with things being produced as needed and things being repaired. Get used to it and watch closely what is going on in Venezuela and now California.

onlooker on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 12:39 pm 



California is a disaster waiting to happen

Apneaman on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 12:50 pm 



California Wildfires Are Abrupt Climate Change, Ecological Collapse
BY DR. GLEN BARRY · PUBLISHED OCTOBER 24, 2015 · UPDATED JUNE 21, 2016

“Worldwide our last great forests that support the biosphere are crashing as a result of climate change. Hotter droughts that are associated with climate change are causing stress and death for trees, and these increasingly unnatural forest conditions are leading to apocalyptic forest fires like have never before been seen.

The world continues to be in a state of perma-war as distant societies and ecosystems are plundered for oil. As more ecosystems collapse, the entire biosphere is threatened by death.”

http://ecointernet.org/2015/10/24/california-wildfires-are-abrupt-climate-change-ecological-collapse/

Apneaman on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 1:01 pm 



Heat records tumble across San Diego County

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/jun/20/heat-heading-record/

steveo on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 1:08 pm 



This is the result of 40 years of deregulating utilities and allowing the invisible hand of the market to determine the amount of maintenance SCGC did on their storage facility.

Thanks you very much neo-liberal economics. Heck-of-job.

Dustin Hoffman on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 1:08 pm 



Is life possible without air conditioning?
We will soon see!

Apneaman on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 1:11 pm 



New crop varieties ‘can’t keep up with global warming’

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-36579125

ghung on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 1:46 pm 



As usual, this guy posts sensationalised hyperbole then uses it as a “source” for his later articles. I’m not saying that the gridweenies of California aren’t facing problems….

Anyway, this off-gridder’s charge controllers just signalled that the batteries are fully charged (just after mid-day) and told the AC in the master suite to kick on, using surplus PV power to over-cool things and reduce the humidity. Meanwhile, the PV panels above the master suite shade it from the hot summer sun. None of this is rocket science; just common-freaking-sense. Doesn’t do much for the utility shareholders, but I don’t have much respect for the for-profit gridweenie mentality anyway. They’ll just have to learn to roll with the blackouts I guess; they who are so slow to adapt. Not surprising, that. Who TF would want to live in an unsustainable desert with millions of other like-minded people anyway? Says a lot.

Never liked the place much….

Davy on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 2:00 pm 



G-hung, any personal opinion of (Ni-Fe) batteries by Iron Edison? Looking at a small system for the cabin to run lights and a frig. This would be DC setup mainly. I have a system in my big barn that has lead acid batteries by Trojan.

vox_mundi on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 2:13 pm 



End of California nuclear era: Last plant to close by 2025

California’s last nuclear power plant will close by 2025 under an accord announced Tuesday, ending three decades of safety debates that helped fuel the national anti-nuclear power movement.

The state’s largest utility, Pacific Gas & Electric Co., and environmental groups reached an agreement to replace production at Diablo Canyon nuclear plant with solar power and other energy sources that do not produce climate-changing greenhouse gases.

The facility, which sits along a bluff on California’s central coast, supplies 9 percent of the state’s power.

Under the deal, the utility agreed not to renew Diablo Canyon’s license. Closing the plant should be cheaper than operating the facility through 2044 as planned, meaning the utility probably won’t have to increase rates, PG&E said.

An abundance of inexpensive natural gas has owners of older nuclear plants wondering if the expensive repairs and maintenance are worthwhile.

Southern California Edison’s San Onofre nuclear plant, between San Diego and Los Angeles, shut down permanently in 2013 after a $670 million equipment swap failed. The same year, Duke Energy announced it would close the Crystal River Nuclear Plant in Florida after a botched repair job left it facing potentially billions of dollars in additional work.

http://phys.org/news/2016-06-california-nuclear-decades.html

ghung on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 2:30 pm 



Personal opinion? Damned expensive, those. Wish I could afford a big set because of their longevity. I would increase my PV by about 20% to offset their higher standby losses and quit worrying about batteries for the next 30+ years.

That said, we’ve gotten great performance from lead-acid batteries. Our current set is in their 10th year and going strong with an amortised cost of about $600 per year. Lead-acids get a bad reputation because of people who don’t know how to design a good system and take care of their batteries. Our cells get a good mini-equalization and full charge every sunny day; first priority. After that we do energy-intensive chores; AC, vacuum, laundry, dishwasher, heat water if needed, bake bread,, whatever. That way we don’t cycle the batteries too hard. Of course, most folks in the developed world would resent having to adapt their lifestyles to the vagaries of nature, eh? Just ain’t natural these days.

Bob Owens on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 2:53 pm 



Most people have a spare fridge in the garage for their food stockpile. After a 3 day blackout that stuff will be toast. You need to plan for robust systems with backup to be successful for any length of time. Barb and I have a regular fridge for everyday, a chest freezer for frozen storage and a pantry for canned goods. A chest freezer will keep stuff frozen for days and is very efficient to run. We also keep an old empty chest freezer for backup to our 2 main units. For extended blackouts you need a generator. Gas generators are OK but will you have gas on hand that hasn’t gone bad? You might be able to siphon a bit of gas from your car but have you ever tried it? Better is a propane generator. No carb to go bad here. A cylinder of propane is equal to about 5 gallons of gas and can be stored for decades. We have 3 cylinders in storage and 1 in use with the outdoor grill. A 2 burner propane stove completes our system. When our power was out for 5 days we would get up in the am, run the generator for 4 hours with the fridges and microwave and coffee pot plugged in and cook breakfast & lunch. A few battery powered lights, propane lantern and some books allowed us to stay comfy while everyone else was running around town with all the stoplights out and stores closed. So, try to build robust systems that can last you at least 1 week, maybe longer in ration mode.

Davy on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 3:11 pm 



As always thanks G

ghung on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 3:25 pm 



No problem Davy. And if I win the lotto, my first two purchases will be a solar-powered golf cart and Edison batteries 😉 The golf cart was to be this year’s purchase, but a nice used Kubota GR-2100 lawn tractor steal-deal came along. Yes, I still need to mow our steep hills some, and that little 3-cyl Kubota AWD diesel is impressively efficient (for an ICE). I mowed about 3 hours yesterday on less than a gallon of fuel. My John Deere mower would have use 3 gallons of gas. Go figure.

Hoping goats will be doing that chore soon.

JuanP on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 3:37 pm 



Davy, I second Ghung’s opinion. NiFe batteries are the longest lasting chemical batteries that exist to my knowledge. I have read reports of some of them being in constant use in remote locations for more than 50 years in one particular case. That is proven technology with a verifiable track record.

JuanP on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 3:51 pm 



Onlooker “California is a disaster waiting to happen.”
I totally agree. My best friend and his wife and daughter lived there, in LA, for over ten years and I kept nagging them to get out. When their daughter reached school age they moved back to his wife’s hometown outside Orlando, FL. They now live in a large hobby horse farm in Ocala National Forest and have become preppers. I am very glad that all three of them, particularly his daughter, my favorite girl in the whole world, no longer live in LA.

LA is a fucking concrete jungle if there ever was one; it is even worse than Miami.

Speculawyer on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 4:00 pm 



” millions of electric customers in Southern California were warned they ***could*** suffer power outages on up to 14 days this summer”

Fear-mongering article. They’ll probably not have any power outage, the utility is just putting out a CYA memo.

But there is a point here . . . we should all move toward reliable sources of electricity like Solar PV that work very reliably on those hot sunny days, unlike that unreliable natural gas! 😉

Truth Has A Liberal Bias on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 4:08 pm 



365 days without electricity and 9 out of 10 ‘merikans will be dead. Good luck with EVs.

http://energyskeptic.com/2016/emp-commission-estimates-nationwide-blackout-lasting-1-year-could-kill-up-to-9-of-10-americans-through-starvation-disease-and-societal-collapse/

Davy on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 4:12 pm 



Thanks Juan, going for a limited system with a specific use. I will have the grid running my electric oven and A/C. I can do without them in a grid down situation. This system will run frig and lights which I consider vital. I am also going to look into a solar hot water system to use In place of my small tankless electric heater. The reason I like the Iron Edison batteries is the longevity. I have lead acid already in barn and they have been working flawlessly. I like to have a variety of hardware.

rockman on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 4:27 pm 



Davy – “Our grid because of its nature as centralized and covering large regional areas is setting itself up for instability.” What do you “us”, white man? LOL. K suspect you know there are 3 grids: east, west and Texas. You know we spent $7 billion of the state’s money to expand our grid to take advantage of on huge wind power buildup, right? I wonder if that would have happened if we didn’t have our own grid. Or would CA chipped half if we could ship power to them?

And we do get some “free” electricity during the summer when our AC’z are running almost continuous:

Check this out: TXU Free Nights promises free electricity every day from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. But what about the rest of the time? A residential customer gets slammed with an outrageous 18 cents per kilowatt-hour rate, about double what anybody else would pay on a normal price plan offered by most companies.

TXU Free Weekends promises free electricity for 48 hours beginning at midnight Friday. But during the week, expect to pay 19 cents per kwh. Holy moly! It’s free, but it’s expensive when it’s not.

Both plans are 18-month contracts with whopping early cancellation fees of $295 that aren’t even prorated. The only good thing — and this is important — is that TXU gives you 60 days to bail out of these programs without a cancellation charge if you’re not happy.

Reliant’s Free Weekends plan tacks on an extra four hours on Friday night, starting at 8 p.m., but the cost is almost 15 cents per kwh the rest of the time plus an extra $6.48 a month, which is part of Oncor’s delivery charge.

A difference is that TXU says it waives the Oncor charge during free hours, but Reliant doesn’t, meaning electricity used during free time is not entirely free. Reliant also gives its customers a free Nest Learning Thermostat, a $249 value.

With 1.5 million customers and more than 40 percent of the market share, TXU deserves credit for not running in place and shaking up its offerings. Let’s detour for a moment and give TXU even bigger credit for its remarkable turnaround in customer service in the last year or so.

Those rates might be above the national average of 11¢/kWh but look at CA: Residential electricity rates in California average 15.34¢/kWh, which ranks the state 8th in the nation.

Think about it: no cost to coo! your house all weekend or overnighty. A particular great deal if no one is home during the week days.

And some folks still try to piss on wind power. LOL.

Apneaman on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 4:57 pm 



Aging US Power Grid Blacks Out More Than Any Other Developed Nation

“According to federal data, the U.S. electric grid loses power 285 percent more often than in 1984, when the data collection effort on blackouts began. That’s costing American businesses as much as $150 billion per year, the DOE reported, with weather-related disruptions costing the most per event.

“Each one of these [blackouts] costs tens of hundreds of millions, up to billions, of dollars in economic losses per event,” said Massoud Amin, director of the Technological Leadership Institute at the University of Minnesota, who has analyzed U.S. power grid data since it became available in the ’80s.

“The root causes” of the increasing number of blackouts are aging infrastructure and a lack of investment and clear policy to modernize the grid. The situation is worsened by gaps in the policies of federal and local commissioners. And now there are new risks to the grid from terrorism and climate change’s extreme impacts, Amin said.

Also, demand for electricity has grown 10 percent over the last decade, even though there are more energy-efficient products and buildings than ever. And as Americans rely increasingly on digital devices, summers get hotter (particularly in the southern regions of the U.S.) and seasonal demand for air conditioning grows, the problem is only getting worse.”

http://www.ibtimes.com/aging-us-power-grid-blacks-out-more-any-other-developed-nation-1631086

Gary Garrett on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 4:57 pm 



Wow, it seems like it was last year or the year before that I was called an idiot for mentioning the looming energy crisis that would probably affect California as well as some other states.
Wait a minute, that WAS when it was.

ghung on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 5:16 pm 



What’s a blackout?

Davy on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 5:16 pm 



Rock, Texas has done some good investing but what I have in mind is an economic situation where infrastructure decays even in Texas. Ideally we would have more local networks along with a population using much less. This would include better power management of when they use it. Smaller is easier to manage. Locals can take ownership of their grid. Local grids could work to eliminate the middle men who are parasites. This grid instability is a product of the collapse process and nowhere will be immune. I am speculating somewhat but for many here my ideas as a possibility are sound.

Davy on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 5:21 pm 



I am sure there are areas with blackouts but here in Central Missouri we have not had any. If power goes down it is from weather. We have not lost power for a few years now. On occasion power flicks which trips clocks but it is never more than a second.

Heywood_Jablowme on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 5:31 pm 



Should we take bets on how accurate this prediction is? I’ve lived in So. Cal. for 40+ years and don’t think I’ve been without power for 14 days total in that entire time.
If I had to make a guess, I’d say the average person will be without power for less than 14 hours over the entire summer.

makati1 on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 5:41 pm 



Blackouts and brownouts are coming to ALL of the US in the near future. The ability to keep it all running without investments of billion$ annually is beginning to show. Climate change added to the deterioration will become obvious. Nuclear plant failures will increase as the band-aids are turning yellow and falling off.

We sometimes lose power here in the city during a typhoon, but never for more than a few hours. The longest was 11 hours a few years ago. Power outages do happen on some of the islands (7,000+) because they do not have adequate systems yet. But many here, outside the cities, do not even have an electric connection to notice.

Apneaman on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 6:06 pm 



SHTF plan. I think this is another one of those religious retard Michael Snyder sites. An entire article about possible power outages in California and no mention of climate change even while this week temperature records in the US southwest are being smashed to shit, folks are literally dying from the heat and utilities are asking their customers not use their appliance during peak hours to avoid a blackout.

All praise the little baby gee-bus

JuanP on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 6:08 pm 



Davy, NiFe batteries are extremely reliable and long lasting. They are not very popular because they are heavier than other batteries which makes them impractical for mobile applications, don’t hold their charge as long, and are more expensive than other battery types, too. I remember reading an article a few years back about some remote weather stations where this batteries had been in use for over 50 years with very little maintenance, just an electrolyte refill every other decade, IIRC. I would buy them if my goal was to have battery power for as long as possible after the SHTF and I could afford them. If you buy the batteries alone and not an integrated system it is very important to get the right chargers and inverters for them. I couldn’t help you with that because I don’t know enough about the subject.

JuanP on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 6:14 pm 



Heywood “I’ve lived in So. Cal. for 40+ years and don’t think I’ve been without power for 14 days total in that entire time.”

It is a mistake to think that the future will be like the recent past. The recent past was a bubble and this bubble is ready to burst. We have lived in a world with increasing population and consumption all our lives. These trends are unsustainable on a finite planet and, therefore, will not be sustained. You’d better prepare to live in a wholly different world!

Bruce Fernandes on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 6:26 pm 



The problem with energy PC and refusing to add the ability to generate electrical power…. been happening in the inland empire for years. Moved to NV because I got tired of paying up to live in a state where the political environment is unwavering on making humanity pay in all forms in the name of energy PC.

Brad Hagood on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 9:11 pm 



What about the wind and solar projects that couldn’t make it without our subsidies. Oh yeah, the wind doesn’t blow when its 110 degrees and the sun doesn’t shine at night(much less the battery thingy). Nice try you tree hugging liberals.

ghung on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 9:36 pm 



Brad said; “Nice try you tree hugging liberals.”

Thanks Brad. I tried (and succeeded as well) to come up with a way to make my own power without forcing you to subsidise it. Meanwhile, I subsidise your power with my tax dollars and environment with every kWh you consume. So say thankyou, you a’hole.

makati1 on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 9:48 pm 



Brad, every wind and solar electric generating system has to have hydrocarbon power plant backup for the many times they cannot produce electric. Until they can stand alone 24/7/365, they are just toys.

ghung on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 9:58 pm 



Not true, mak. Mine aren’t toys.

Hey Stupid on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 10:42 pm 



There was never a problem with the power grid prior to them deregulating the power industry, anything else is total lies about no power.

Kenneth Clouston on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 10:55 pm 



Too bad California has moved so far away from a reliable energy source like coal. At least with coal as a dependable standby, there wouldn’t be an electrical emergency. Best of luck west coast, I hope the strict environmental policies do not cause unnecessary suffering, financial burdens, and deaths.

makati1 on Tue, 21st Jun 2016 11:01 pm 



ghung, Yours is not a commercial system is it? Apple and oranges. Stand alone small systems for individual homes are ok. If they fail, it will not create a hazard or loss of life.

Not so for commercial applications that must run 24/7/365. Those require backup, usually hydrocarbon powered. Those are never going to be actual power sources until they can also stand alone. I don’t see that happening.

Brian on Wed, 22nd Jun 2016 12:27 am 



Davy,
I have a set of 500Ah NiFe from Iron Edison and they work well. So far I am happy with them. They do drink water but I am thinking about making a solar still to solve that problem. Distilled water is less than $1/gal so it is still not a big expense.
Brian

Davy on Wed, 22nd Jun 2016 6:26 am 



Thanks Brian, I became interested because a good local friend has an Iron Edison system mainly DC that is completely off the grid. I like his setup and he is going to guide me through the process. I am looking at a small specific system to only run lights and a frig. This will keep cost down. I have no problem with the grid. I treat it as another asset. I am going to focus my off the grid efforts to maintain vital life support systems like preserving food in a frig and lights. I will leave the A/C, electric oven, and electric heat to the grid. If the grid destabilizes or goes down completely I can do without these luxuries. I have a wood stove oven and woodstoves for heat. I am going to build a root cellar for a cool place to go as needed with climate change. I do want to power my well with solar eventually as the next project. Bison has a good system and there is a solar adaption for them. http://bisonpumps.com/deep-well-hand-pump/. I have lake water and a nice spring but running tap water makes life so much easier. I have so many things going on I can’t get too elaborate with any one project. I have to stay simple. I have to embrace many things at lower cost and with less capabilities.

JuanP on Wed, 22nd Jun 2016 6:54 am 



Brian “They do drink water but I am thinking about making a solar still to solve that problem.”

I made a solar still and a portable wood fired still and use them regularly. My wife and I like to go camping on uninhabited islands in South Florida that have no drinking water and we make our own using the stills or collect rainwater when possible because water is our heaviest load when backpacking and packrafting.

Our big solar still is made of marine plywood and 2″X4″ legs. The box is 2’X2’X1′, it is airtight, painted black, has a glass top at an angle so water drips to one side, and is sealed with silicone. It has two 10″X18″ Pyrex glass trays that I fill with nasty water that evaporates and falls on a PVC pipe cut in half that is connected to a thinner PVC pipe that takes the vapor out of the box and sends it to a copper pipe condensing coil on the outside under the box in the shade. The coil is then inserted in a bottle where I collect the water. I throw away the first half cup and then collect about three quarts of distilled water to which I add powdered electrolytes. Rinse and repeat. It makes up to a gallon a day of drinking water in Summer.

Our portable wood fired still is made out of two one quart stainless steel Vodka bottles. I sawed off the top of one and screwed on a copper coil to it using home depot parts. I pressure fit the sawed off top on top of the full bottle after filling it with water. Put it on our portable rocket stove and collect the water on a third SS bottle. I throw away the first couple of ounces and get two cups of water in 20 minutes or so. Rinse and repeat. I unscrew the coil and put it around the bottle for storage.

I copied these ideas from the internet and YouTube. They work great and are extremely easy to use.

Simon on Wed, 22nd Jun 2016 7:10 am 



Don’t get goats, they stink !! and are constantly either getting in trouble or escaping.

If you have a hillside, I would go a couple of dexter cattle or a couple of donkeys, you could use the donkeys as motive power as well, no golf cart needed.

On a side note, most renewable projects never save any money, the reason is that people simply use more of the ‘cheap’ power to be more comfortable.

To the people having a pop at renewables, could you point out any form of power generation that is unsubsidised

Davy on Wed, 22nd Jun 2016 7:12 am 



Juan, the modern day MacGyver!

carbonates on Wed, 22nd Jun 2016 7:23 am 



Having lived through more than a few hurricanes and even a 48 hour power outage in San Diego in recent years. most people don’t realize what they will actually lose without power. Food isn’t a big issue unless you live off of fast food (you won’t be buying any). But people who depend on credit and debit cards will suddenly discover that stores will refuse their plastic. And the stores will sell out of water almost immediately. Then they will realize that ATM’s don’t work. After that they discover that they can’t pump gasoline, and then they notice the terrible traffic because the traffic lights have stopped working! A day later they realize that they have no water supply because the public water system relies on electric pumps to build pressure! The three biggest needs for power outages: cash, gasoline, and water. Most people who consider preparing completely forget about cash and gasoline. Having a Coleman gasoline stove and gasoline powered lantern on hand are simple enough to take care of food and lighting.

Mike Nunya on Wed, 22nd Jun 2016 7:41 am 



Since there isn’t enough electricity being produced to supply the demand, do you think that maybe all the utility companies fighting solar might want to let up a little? Obviously, providing enough electricity to keep the customers’ lights on is taking a second seat to making more money. Now, the power companies will go and try to get a rate hike, so they can build another pollution making, or dangerous power plant, under the guise of needing more power, and at the same time, fight to keep individuals or corporations from adding more solar to the grid.

ghung on Wed, 22nd Jun 2016 8:08 am 



Simon says “Don’t get goats, they stink !!”

Buck goats stink; the does, not so much. The plan is to produce goat meat for market. Cattle? Did those for 35 years, and they stink as well. Planning on a donkey or two as guard animals; possible draft animals.

@carbonates: Yes, water is at the top of most preparedness lists including the Red Cross’; a gallon (4 liters) per person per day.
http://www.redcross.org/get-help/prepare-for-emergencies/be-red-cross-ready/get-a-kit
I also have a good portable filter in my go-bag that is rated for 500 gallons and a dropper bottle of bleach. Most water can be treated with bleach/boiling as well. Since our water is solar-pumped and we have 2400 gallons of storage that usually stays full, we don’t worry about the water thing much.

In areas that may have major natural disasters (earthquakes, etc.) it’s a good idea that every family member has a go-bag with all their go-bag stuff. Lots of go-bag lists out there, especially on youtube.

As for a cook stove, a small propane stove is best since the fuel cylinders (2 for $5 at our Walmart) can be stored indefinitely, unlike white gasoline. A gas grill with a stove burner is an option many folks already have. Just keep an extra tank or two. Again, propane doesn’t go bad and can be stored for years.

Kenz300 on Wed, 22nd Jun 2016 9:19 am 



It is time to move to a decentralized energy system with micro grids. Solar with battery storage capability can make many home owners and businesses self sufficient.

Solar Added More New Capacity Than Coal, Natural Gas and Nuclear Combined

http://ecowatch.com/2016/06/09/solar-new-capacity/

Davy on Wed, 22nd Jun 2016 9:35 am 



Don’t get goats because you will fall in love with them and want more lol. My wife loves them. I have 25 now and plan on a herd of fifty. IMO cattle smell more and bring with them more flies. My wife routinely collects the goat poop for the garden. Goat poop is superior in my opinion.

The important thing for me is a goat/cattle system. I no longer am concerned about brush, weeds, and invasive species now that I have goats. They don’t cure these problem plants nor do I want them to. I am preparing for climate change and my goat/cattle grazing system has a diversity of pastries forage. The good thing about weeds and brush is during a drought their deep roots keep them going. I also have chickens that hang out with the goats and manage the bugs. The best part of my day is visiting my animals. It has given my wife an I something to do together which helps keep our relationship stronger.

shortonoil on Wed, 22nd Jun 2016 9:53 am 



” Don’t get goats, they stink !! and are constantly either getting in trouble or escaping. “

The key to building fencing for goats: If it will hold water it will hold a goat!

Goats are very affectionate, and smart. Old Vermont farmer saying, “don’t make pets out of anything you intend to eat”.

steve on Wed, 22nd Jun 2016 10:32 am 



Sure would be nice if we could burn some powder river coal to generate some power.But no way ! Horrible idea! Well enjoy the warm weather