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Page added on December 10, 2012
Europe Still Slowly Sinking
A quick round-up of some European stats. Above is the unemployment rate which continues to steadily worsen (through October). Then there’s retail sales:
October was a bad month and it continues a downward trend since mid 2010.
Next is GDP, down in Q3 as it was in Q2:
Finally industrial production has also been trending down (data only through September):
Makes US economic stats look positively cheery, doesn’t it?
11 Comments on "Europe Still Slowly Sinking"
cephalotus on Mon, 10th Dec 2012 9:55 pm
depends on the statistics that you use.
here is the implicit and explicit dept rate of European countries and the US:
http://www.welt.de/img/wirtschaft/origs111865855/4259728-w900-h600/DWO-EU-27Nachhaltigkeitsran.jpg
Italy looks really healthy, the US is like Greece (with the difference that the US could lower the implicitdept rate much easier than Greece)
Arthur on Mon, 10th Dec 2012 11:04 pm
Italy is healthy because the private debt level is extremely low as large part of the population owns real estate without mortgage.
http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article13756193/In-dieser-Bilanz-steht-Italien-in-Europa-am-besten-da.html
That’s what makes Italy so solid, to my surprise, even more than Germany. And Ireland is far worse than Greece, likely due to real estate bubble. Greece is bad, not because of real estate but instead public debt.
GregT on Tue, 11th Dec 2012 12:12 am
Globe and Mail yesterday:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/european-business/with-monti-pushed-out-italy-returns-to-forefront-of-debt-crisis-bond-yields-jump/article6140148/
BillT on Tue, 11th Dec 2012 1:30 am
The EU is dancing around collapse, but eventually it will happen. The US is in the same boat, and it is sinking even though it is not too obvious to the sheeple. As soon as enough countries dump the dollar, it too will list and go down. As to who is in first class and who is in steerage, who knows? Who cares? They will all be on the same level soon. ‘For Profit’ Capitalism cannot exist much longer in a finite resource world.
Arthur on Tue, 11th Dec 2012 10:03 am
Bill, take a good look at the financial Nachhaltigkeitsranking=sustainability ranking posted by cephalotus, which took me by surprise. The situation in Europe is in fact much better than I thought. What is shown is the total financial position from a point of view of sustainability, encompassing everything: public and private debt plus all the promisses made towards the future like pensions and medicare. A value of zero means you have to do nothing. The higher the value the more drastic the countermeasures need to be. It turns out that the three largest European economies D, F and I are in relatively good shape and that Greece and the US are in the same league, meaning they both have to undergo drastic measures to escape financial ruin/default. Greece can be saved because of the recent gas and oil finds to the tune of 400 billion dollar, equaling total state debt. It does not mean that the ruin of the US is inescapable but that drastic measures need to be taken. Candidate measures: tax increases to European levels, dismantling of all 800+ foreign basis, scutling of all 12 carriers in the mid Atlantic. That should do it.
BillT on Tue, 11th Dec 2012 12:01 pm
You live there Arthur, and have the same delusions that Americans have about their Titanic. Step outside the ‘news’ you get there and think about the situation. You have a group of failed countries pulling down the few who still have their heads above water. The dollar survives because so many Europeans are parking their wealth in the US.
The EU is at the top of the list of Countries External Debts. You have 16 out of the top 23v highest debt countries in the world in the EU. Per capita, Norway and Denmark owe over $100K which is about twice what Americans owe each.
The EU was an experiment doomed to fail from day one. The Euro system was the last nail in the coffin. Now you are being run by unelected bureaucrats who want to turn you all into serfs like the Americans and skim all the wealth that is left into their pockets.
Greece is not going to be saved. They are going to be either the first or second out of the Euro and the EU eventually. Wait and see. Germany may be the first. They still have something to lose by staying in. No oil or other resources are going to save the West. Not now or ever. Game over.
BillT on Tue, 11th Dec 2012 12:09 pm
BTW: I think hell will freeze over before the powers in Washington really do anything to try to stop the collapse. It is beyond their abilities now as it is for the EU and Japan.
Think. They cannot cut any expenditures without raising unemployment to astronomical/riot causing numbers that could not be hidden like those current. Every job lost is a tax not paid. Every property confiscated is a loss when there are no buyers. No real estate taxes coming in. No gas sales, no taxes. No production, no corporate taxes. It is a lose/lose game now. Print until it collapses or collapse now. Those are the only choices.
Well, there is always war. Nukes anyone? Are they psycho enough to do it? We shall see.
Arthur on Tue, 11th Dec 2012 2:01 pm
Bill, don’t worry about Norway and Denmark, as they are #1 and #2 on the global wealth per capita ranking, and more important, they are also #1 and #2 on the global ranking of renewable electricity generators (100% resp. 50%). They go last.
“You have a group of failed countries pulling down the few who still have their heads above water. ”
That’s only Greece and Ireland, but they are fruitflies.
“The EU is at the top of the list of Countries External Debts. You have 16 out of the top 23v highest debt countries in the world in the EU.”
It is not surprising that the wealthiest countries in the world, the western European ones, have the hightest debt. More interesting is if they can service that debt load. That is where the graph of cephalotus comes in. I summed it all up here:
http://deepresource.wordpress.com/2012/12/11/the-real-state-of-western-finances/
You are right, the US debt is not that extraordinary in comparisson with other western states (see debt graph in my post). Ireland, Japan, UK, Spain are far worse off than the US. But as you say yourself:
“They cannot cut any expenditures without raising unemployment to astronomical/riot causing numbers”
The weakness of the US is not so much in debt but in promisses made(pension/medicare) that cannot be fulfilled. That’s were the sustainability graph from cephalotus comes in: the US has 13.8 times GDP outstanding liabilities and when the ‘gimmy dat’ crowd finds out these promisses are not going to be kept, you will see riots indeed, that will dwarf OWS. And that’s the moment when GOP America will grab for their guns and secede. The real tragedy for the US that 40% of the population has third world roots (and 50% of the new borns), thanks to your zionist tormentors, who opened the floodgates for third world immigration in 1965, after they succesfully wasted JFK. A white Detroit can be a ‘Paris of the Americas’ and run a world class car industry but Detroit in it’s current shape can only be a world class gang slum.
“I think hell will freeze over before the powers in Washington really do anything to try to stop the collapse.”
Correct. The zionist powers in Washington could not care less about America and my darkest fear is that they will use the crumbling US as a springboard to global power, by trying to initiate a limited nuclear war, ‘the war to end all wars’ (for the third time). They did not spend 50% of the planetary defense budget on war preparation for nothing, they intend to use it, if the right opportunity arises.
There might be a slight hope that Obama turns out to be an American Putin. I have said many times before that US presidents since Wilson are puppets of zionist interest groups, but so was Putin, when he was brought to power by jewish oligarchs, headed by Berezowski. But Putin was president nevertheless and from that capacity he gave the zionist mob the finger and put them in jail or let them escape to zionist hell holes like Israel and the UK. Maybe, just maybe Obama could do the same. He and Netanyahoo are not very good friends to put it mildly. Maybe here is a chance to avoid catastrophe.
BillT on Tue, 11th Dec 2012 3:41 pm
Arthur, ALL of the EU countries are dying…and, no, wealth will NOT save any country for long. The US used to be a wealthy country, but it is now the #1 beggar. Make each person in your country pay their share of the national debt and see what they have left. That the bank doesn’t own that is.
Renewables? Really? So, you can turn on the lights and maybe keep warm for a while, but if your economy is taken down by outside forces, will they still operate? Will you be able to pay the utility bills? If you have an independent system in your home you may be secure, but public systems require a lot of money to operate.
Your patriotism is laudable, but I think it is misguided, just like those flag wavers in the US who still think they are #1. lol But, I hope you are correct. I just don’t think so.
And Obama does NOT run the US. No president has for at least 30 years. The banking cartel has it’s hooks deep into Europe as that is where it all began centuries ago. And that is where it will all end soon. They have no intention of saving the Union or the Euro. They want the resources of your country in their pockets. They want serfs, not citizens.
I may be wrong, and I really hope so, but I don’t see there being a significant change in anything that could divert our destruction in the next 10 years. The West is going down.
BillT on Tue, 11th Dec 2012 3:54 pm
BTW: Wow! Racist? I think Europe has it’s share. It is a bunch of little countries that never did get along. Now, it is flooded with immigrants and cannot get rid of them. Sounds familiar.
Germany has a new Hitler wearing a skirt. The banking cartel is playing musical chairs with the leadership of most of the EU countries, murder is the rule of the day in all Western countries if anyone tries to go against the Central Bank. And Russia sits at the valve of the gas line that heats Europe. How many of your citizens died in the Iraq/Afghan corporate ‘wars’? How many will die in WW3?
The world is so inter-tangled that when the US goes down,(and it will) it will take a lot of Europe and the West with it. The East is moving away from the US as fast as it can. They see it coming. Do you?
Arthur on Tue, 11th Dec 2012 4:55 pm
“Arthur, ALL of the EU countries are dying”
You keep saying that, without a shred of evidence. Permanent economic decline due to resource depletion? Possibly, even likely. Dying? No. Life will go on one way or the other, safe nuclear war. In full confidence of our competence and abilities, but that is probably a ‘racist’ thought in your judgement.lol
“Renewables? Really? So, you can turn on the lights and maybe keep warm for a while, but if your economy is taken down by outside forces, will they still operate?”
Uh yeah, as long as the sun shines and as a consquence the wind blowes. No correlation with mysterious ‘outside forces’?
“Your patriotism is laudable, but I think it is misguided”
Nothing to do with patriotism, as I admitted that the situation of my country within the European context is not that good after all.
“And Obama does NOT run the US. No president has for at least 30 years.”
We already agreed on that one, but make that 100 years when US zionists pursuaded Wilson into WW1, as witnessed by the September 10, 1941 letter from Chaim Weizmann to Churchill (google it up). But Obama could stage a coup, just like Putin did. Maybe not.
“The West is going down.”
If the West is going down due to resource and energy depletion, so will the rest of the world. With three times the speed.
“BTW: Wow! Racist?”
Oh Christ, what is this!? The Huffington Post or a forum that is willing to face some potentially very hard truths, including human extinction? Are you sure you are of German descent, that moved to the US before 1800? You have repeatedly admitted that the US is turning in a ‘third world country’. So what did you mean to say with that? What is so difficult to understand about the very easy to verify truth that white people are able to put a man on the moon? Where are the similar accomplishments of your pets? Come to think of it, neither the Americans nor the Soviets would have been able to put a man in orbit let alone on the moon without the people from Huntsville/Alabama. Or less euphemistically from Peenemuende.
“It is a bunch of little countries that never did get along.”
These ‘small countries’ ruled the world between 1492-1945 until Anglo and Soviet invaders came along to destroy it, advancing zionist globalist interests. And don’t give me that crap about ‘liberation’. I have effectively spent 1 manyear studying WW1 and WW2 during the last three years on my own cost to exactly understand what happened. We are united now since 50 years and probably remain united, including Moscow, because of the presence of the rising Chinese pole, long after one-day-fly US will be erased from the page of time… because you committed racial suicide and will balkanize as a consequence.
“Germany has a new Hitler wearing a skirt.”
Let I abstain from comment here. This is after all an american forum.
“The banking cartel is playing musical chairs with the leadership of most of the EU countries,”
Europe does not have a jewish dominated banking center, like Goldman-Sachs NYC or Rothshild London. These people were never able to dominate us directly, like they did with you and even worse with the Russians, where the entire upper stratum was systematically genocided. Your ally remember. Their master stroke was to sick the USSR and USA upon us in the fourties and managed to get us down for 70 years. But that’s over now. The only way to get us down for you is to nuke us… and join us in the grave.
“And Russia sits at the valve of the gas line that heats Europe. ”
Which precisely will lead to the marriage between EU and Russia. Russia is and has openly defined itself as a European society (=white christian), no US PC BS here. They are obviously no Han Chinese. The 20th century was progressive US-SU globalist, hand in hand with economic expansion due to expanding resource extraction, which likely is now going to be reversed. The 21th century will be Greater European-Chinese identitarian conservative, if not reactionary, if not archaic. With maybe some north-eastern American European outposts as fill mass/junior partner. Do you see THAT coming? Or is that too racist to contemplate?
Talking about race… you may have escaped a possible ethnic war in the US, but the Philipines would be the last place I would like to be if the US gets seriously embroiled with China.