Record Wind Power Levels Trigger Energy Price Fall Across Europe

32 Comments on "Record Wind Power Levels Trigger Energy Price Fall Across Europe"

mike on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 2:47 pm 



That is nice to know. So consumers like me in the UK can look forward to reductions in their electric bills of course. I don’t think. Ever onward and upward more like.

Arthur on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 3:05 pm 



http://www.z24.nl/geld/energierekening-prijs-stroom-begin-2014-omlaag-397511

Energy prices ARE coming down in the Netherlands.

as wind operators continue to feed subsidized power into the grid

The usual baloney about ‘wind energy subsidies’, where in reality grid operators are forced to pay for kwh’s that have real market value. Why would consumers have to pay for electricity and grid operators not?

The next important step is to build hydro storage capacity in order to get rid of most backup fossil fuel electricity generation.

mike on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 4:08 pm 



Intriguing. Where in the Netherlands will the hydro storage capacity be contructed? Dom’t you need mountains?

Feemer on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 4:34 pm 



Wind power has huge potential. The problem in Europe is that no one wants wind turbines making the countryside “ugly”. It’s true that I wouldn’t put turbines in the alps, but people are resisting wind turbines in normal places. People need to understand that if the world has any hope of coming out of peak oil still as a technological society, we are going to have to put wind and solar EVERYWHERE. I don’t mean on the top of a mountain, that’s unrealistic, but at a point we are going to have to decide between the aesthetic value of a building, or rolling hills, and energy. We need more renewable energy though, not for the sake of postponing peak oil, but for the sake of postponing climate change.

PrestonSturges on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 6:46 pm 



Is it coldest in Europe when the wind does NOT blow and it’s not getting warm air off the Gulf Stream? Then it would be cold because Europe is much much further north than most of the US.

In America, it’s usually coldest when the wind DOES blow, bringing the cold air from Canada.

PrestonSturges on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 6:49 pm 



Note how Munich is further north than Fargo ND.

Pacman on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 7:00 pm 



SSE are planning a 660mw pumped storage with 30 GW storage (50 hours). Quite a few years away though. Probably needs the high voltage Beuly-Denny power line completed first

On the thought of pumped storage for Netherlands. I thought they had some offshore giant doughnut idea for offshore pumped storage ?

Arthur on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 7:04 pm 



Mike, you are a smart mister and not easy to deceive.

http://deepresource.wordpress.com/2013/06/15/norned/

Kenz300 on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 7:23 pm 



Wind and solar are growing in use around the world.

The price of oil, coal and nuclear keeps rising and causing environmental damage.

The price of wind and solar keeps dropping and its safe and clean. Once installed there are no monthly fuel bills for 20 or 30 years…… What will the price of oil, coal and nuclear be over the next 20 years?

mike on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 8:45 pm 



I am glad that the Dutch have a sense of irony, Arthur.

I am also impressed at the scheme in the link you provide. It is the sort of development that should be promoted in the EU (I know Norway actually not in the EU) and that so much of Europe’s infrastructure and general economic development shgould be integrated into a well organised cross continental system (and I deplore the fact that here in the UK thewre is too little positive feeling towards this integration).

Twin Performance on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 8:58 pm 



None of the above commit to the whole truth. By denying it takes coal, oil and gas in production, materials and upkeep of renewable technology.
Don’t understand? Well try to build a 100th floor skyscraper without steel. Past the 12th floor your construction falters. (Crashes).
The point is simple, renewable energy is co-existent to fossil fuels. Even if we do shift our economies to a ‘Total War’ manner towards Climate Change, we still hit the 12th floor. Either way renewables do offer a hope of decentralised living with electricity for a while longer. But no more.
Either way, this argument about renewables becomes redundant. As we are already entering positive feedback loops which will positively reduce global agricultural output. So boys, stick that up your renewables pipe and smoke it, your looking at the tress and not the whole forest.

Arthur on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 9:24 pm 



Mike,

http://deepresource.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/britned/

deepresource . wordpress . com/2013/07/28/european-supergrid-subsea-cables-inventory-plans/

GregT on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 9:25 pm 



Thanks Twin Performance,

You are exactly correct. It continues to amaze me how so many people are unable, or perhaps more appropriately, unwilling to face the truth. I understand that denial is a very powerful human trait, but it is doing nothing to help our situation. As I have pointed out so many times here before, electricity is not going to solve our problems. We need to take care of the basic necessities of life first, like food, water, shelter, and security, before we spend so much time on trying to figure out how to keep our iPads powered, or how to keep driving aimlessly around the countryside.

Europe, especially, is heading towards a major food and water crisis. The Netherlands really need to start making serious plans for sea level rise. Building out infrastructure that is sure to be underwater in a few decades, doesn’t seem to me, to make a whole lot of sense.

Meld on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 10:03 pm 



The interesting thing is that renewables power the least important parts of the energy system. The problem has never been can we find enough energy for our Tvs ipads and lighting but rather where do we find the energy to power the most energy intensive and important parts of our civilization, Transport, Food and manufacturing.

A fully decked out home with solar panels and wind turbines is next to useless if you can’t get any food. That’s the big issue here.

Arthur on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 10:21 pm 



Meld,

In the fifties only a few had a car and nobody had flown yet. Banana’s, pineapples, mango’s were largely unknown. I remember the milkman, who only rang once, bringing milk, still warm. What transport?

http://deepresource.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/amsterdam-1952/

Meld on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 11:03 pm 



@Arthur

Populations were an order of magnitude smaller in the 50s and the agricultural land was still reasonably well managed. Today it is a sponge sucking up fossil fuels and eroding day by day. Water levels are dangerously low in underground aquifers and climate change is causing mass crop damage.

Whilst I have no reason to doubt that prices of ipods, fridges, solar panels and cars will keep going down in price in the short term, the trend of exponential growth in food and fuel prices will continue. I’d take a good supply of wood and a veg plot over 100 solar panels any day of the week.

Harquebus on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 11:16 pm 



Wind and solar generators are manufactured using fossil fuel energy. They do not return the energy used to manufacture them. When renewable energy is used to manufacture them, it will become apparent that is there is no such thing.

GregT on Sun, 12th Jan 2014 11:43 pm 



“In the fifties only a few had a car and nobody had flown yet”

Seriously Arthur? I own a 1956 Cessna 172. In 1957 my parents lived in the suburbs of Vancouver. Most families here owned a car, as a matter of fact my father drove to Vancouver from Ottawa, and my Mother followed later by plane. The first commercial JET aircraft to fly was in 1949.

Are you sure you don’t mean the 20s?

And yes Meld is spot on. In the 50s, in Vancouver at least, the entire Fraser valley was rich, river delta, agricultural land. More than enough to sustain a population of 500,000. Today the population is close to five times that, and much of the agricultural land has been paved over, developed into housing, or transformed into industrial lands. The vast majority of our food now comes from OVER 2000 kilometres away, and is grown by big Ag using massive fossil fuel inputs.

Electricity is NOT going to provide for future food needs, and while this should be a big reason for concern, this issue is not on most people’s radar. Just like on this forum, the people that are even aware of what we are facing, are spending their time trying to figure out how to continue on with some semblance of BAU, rather than focusing on what we need to stay alive.

I, like Meld, would much prefer a good supply of wood, and a couple of acres of arable land, with a good supply of fresh water.

Makati1 on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 1:39 am 



Has anyone considered that, at the rate the world economy is slowing and in some instances, contracting, that we will not need that electric in the future?

How much electric did we need before all the gadgets to burn it were invented/sold? Very little. How long do you think they will be able to sell all of the electro gadgets when no one has money for necessities, let alone luxuries?

Some believe that the internet is forever, but it is likely one of the first to go. It consumes huge amounts of electric all around the world and has become a threat to governments and personal privacy. It is a systems nightmare that makes most other supply chains look simple. The most complicated systems collapse first.

GregT on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 2:40 am 



“Some believe that the internet is forever, but it is likely one of the first to go.”

As much as I rely on the internet, not only at work, but also in my personal life, I have already come to the conclusion that it’s days are numbered.

I have been amassing books on animal husbandry, vegetable faming, alternate medicine, survival, building practices, and indigenous plants. If I never need them in my lifetime, I have little doubt that they will be indispensable for my children and grandchildren. If we are fortunate enough to get that far.

Harquebus on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 4:32 am 



BillT. I also collect books for the same reason.

Meld on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 8:12 am 



I came to the conclusion that the only really decent thing about the internet is wikipedia. Yes sure some of it is incorrect, but you effectively have most of human history and knowledge at least roughly laid down. I only go on about 5 websites, and 4 of those are zerohedge, archdruid report, peakoil.com and wikipedia. The last one is Amazon which I use to buy books about storing food, building things , growing things etc.

I wouldn’t miss the internet TBH

Arthur on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 8:51 am 



Seriously Arthur? I own a 1956 Cessna 172. In 1957 my parents lived in the suburbs of Vancouver. Most families here owned a car, as a matter of fact my father drove to Vancouver from Ottawa, and my Mother followed later by plane. The first commercial JET aircraft to fly was in 1949.

Greg, well I am happy for you, but if you reread my post you will see I was talking about the Netherlands 1952, according to both my parents of blessed memory, the most happy period in their life, without much fossil fuel to consume, apart from a little bit of coal to keep a single stove warm in the living room. And certainly no gas for a car. My parents were a rare people who sailed through life without a clunker ever, lived until high age, were relatively well off and managed to bring their two boys to college.

See ‘figuur 4’, page 16:

http://www.cedelft.eu/?go=home.downloadPub&id=185&file=04_4684_13.pdf.

Now it is 10 million cars on a population of 17 million, in 1952 it was ca. 50k cars on a population of ca. 10 million.

P.S. is not the ownership of a Cessna somewhat at odds with your glowing concern for the global environment? Forget it, rhetorical.

Meld on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 12:10 pm 



That’s a touching story Arthur but it clearly highlights in a single paragraph your disconnect from the reality of the 21st century.

The 21st century is where very few young people can even cook a meal, let alone grow a cabbage, chop wood or repair a roof. 95% of people in the industrial world rely on supermarkets, fast food and a highly complicated transport manufacturing system all powered by fossil fuels. I’m 32 and over the last decade I have been learning plenty of “post industrial” skills, but I wouldn’t even call myself close to the skill levels of people who existed in the 18th 19th and early 20th century.

Arthur on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 1:06 pm 



I don’t understand where all this extreme pessimism comes from, with people preparing for a life consisting of animal trapping, living in wooden cabins in the forest, wood chopping, food growing, a sort of Thoreau/Walden kind of life. Sometimes I suspect that a lot of people here secretly HOPE this is going to happen, fed up as they are with their lives in the cubicle. Maybe North-America is ripe for a sort of Romanticism 2.0, as an extension to the European one from 1800-1850.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism

In my view, nothing like that is going to happen, I mean no total collapse of industrial civilization, at least not if we don’t want to. But as long as many people hang on to their stubborn superstition that you need fossil fuel to create renewable energy sources, no other conclusion than total collapse is possible.

P.S. nothing is easier than having a vegetable garden. Historically this kind of work was always (correctly) been viewed as having low status, anybody can do it. When I was twelve, my father decided that it was pedagogical for me to be able to have these garden skills, so during two seasons we maintained a garden of 15m*15m. The produce (everything, from strawberries, to beans, cabbage, potatoes, salad, onions, carrots, the lot) was so immense, that my mother thanked God when this exercise was finally over and she could get neat food from the supermarket again.

Meld on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 2:17 pm 



It’s not pessimism Arthur it’s realism. You are what is called an optimist or a Pollyanna. People like you exist all over the world, from the horrors of a Sudanese refugee camp to the royal family, to politicians to businessmen. It’s a very excellent way to live your life in the 20th and 21st century as an optimist always think everything can be overcome and as such never worries about much. But you must realise that optimism is just as much a disease of the mind as pessimism, both recoil from reality and seek to deal with it in their own individual way. Pessimists tend to lead long dull lives, optimists short happy ones. You take your choice really.

Regarding vegetable gardens, that is not my experience after 10 years of veg growing. Within my circle of veg growing associates many know it is a hard hard Job. I’m sure it was fun for you when you were 12, what with your father probably doing the majority of the work, but keeping yourself in fruit and veg when you have the horror of starvation hanging over you and little to no idea what you’re doing is not fun.

I have a friend like you, he was a mountain leader, very optimistic about everything, even his hip replacement and inability to walk properly now. Great chap, still doesn’t change the fact he has a gimpy leg at the age of 37 from too much caving (something I would never do because I find the risk far out ways the benefits.)

shortonoil on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 2:20 pm 



The reason power costs in Europe are coming down is because Europe is in a depression! Most of Southern Europe has unemployment rates running at over 27%, and over 50% for youth employment. Businesses in Italy are closing down at the rate of 2000 per week. The only bright spot is Germany, and it you look at their last month’s PMI it doesn’t look like that is going to stay bright for long. Once China goes down the drain (which it probably will this year when its shadow banking system implodes) Germany will start looking a lot like Spain.

The world is powered by OIL, and we are approaching the end of the oil age. In 2012 it took 1.9 barrels of petroleum to supply the same amount of energy to the general economy as one barrel did in 1960. The only reason the entire world is not now in a gigantic depression is that some technologies have been able to mitigate some of the decline in oil. Unfortunately, we are now hitting the point of diminishing returns for those technologies. By 2030 – 2035 the average barrel of petroleum will have hit the “dead state”, and the oil age will be over. BAU can not exist without petroleum; anyone who thinks otherwise probably needs a little more Prozac!

GregT on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 3:02 pm 



“I don’t understand where all this extreme pessimism comes from, with people preparing for a life consisting of animal trapping, living in wooden cabins in the forest, wood chopping, food growing”

Pessimism? Sorry again Arthur, but you are describing what a large percentage of our population here does when they go on vacation. (minus the animal trapping ) Most people I know these days use firearms. Oh, and hunting is hugely on the rise, people are starting to realize the benefits of not consuming chemical, drug, and hormone laden meat. It is even becoming more and more popular with younger women. Go figure.

BTW, the Cessna is up for sale. The price of 100LL avgas has risen so dramatically over the last 5 years, that private aviation here, is coming to a grinding halt.

Meld on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 5:10 pm 



@ shortonoil

Bang on, I keep hearing about “peak fossil fuel demand” these days as if magically everyone is converting to solar and wind. Nope, the world is in a global depression. That being said, it could be argued that a global depression at the peak of the civilisation is till “better” than the years that come before or after it.

shortonoil on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 8:40 pm 



@Meld

Here at the Hill’s Group, someone asks the question every day, “what will the world look like tomorrow”? Are we headed into a Mad Max scenario, or is there something else on the horizon. We see some incredible possibilities coming down the line. In the last issue of Scientific American is an article on the advancements taking place in material science. “Cornell”? has cracked the quantum calculations for developing new materials. New, and phenomenal materials will now likely be developed at rates of hundreds, to thousands of times faster than what is presently occurring. Imagine an ultra thin body suite that keeps you warm in the winter, and cool in the summer, and runs for a year on a flash light battery.

What tomorrow will look like we don’t know; and neither does anyone else. One thing for sure, the oil age is rapidly coming to an end, and tomorrow will not look anything like today.

GregT on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 9:41 pm 



Shortonoil,

Given our past track record, one should really be questioning whether more technology is such a great idea, or not.

shortonoil on Mon, 13th Jan 2014 11:45 pm 



@GregT

All living creatures have some form of survival mechanism: birds have wings, and turtle have shells. Human through the structure of our primate heritage, have developed complex culture. This has allowed for the development, and initiation of technology. To say that humans shouldn’t use, and develop technology and is analogous to saying we don’t have a right to survival on this planet. That I can’t agree with.

What we need to do is to understand that we are only one element in a complex ecological system that must be maintained in a healthy state. Without it, we die! If we don’t come to terms with this concept, nature will remove us from our position at the top of the food chain. She may find it necessary to remove us completely.

As the dominate animal on this planet we have the responsibility to protect this planet. If we don’t – we will lose that responsibility, and all which that implies.

If we stop developing technology we die. If we develop malign technology nature will remove us. Balancing the scales is now our most critical endeavor.