Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

John Denver, this is for you...

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.
Post a reply

John Denver, this is for you...

Unread postby Ebyss » Fri 06 May 2005, 21:00:01

Oil on Mars

It appears Mars might be a better candidate for oil harvesting in our solar system. We might even be able to put mirrors on it, and maybe even a space elevator :wink: :)


Hey.. anything's possible.
We've tried nothin' and we're all out of ideas.

I am only one. I can only do what one can do. But what one can do, I will do. -- John Seymour.
User avatar
Ebyss
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun 20 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Ireland
Top

Unread postby RonMN » Fri 06 May 2005, 21:39:31

DON'T say space elevator!!! I thought of that concept before it was public knowledge & decided it would eventually (with continued use) slow down the rotation of the earth :cry: I'm sorry to think that somebody else thought of it as well.
User avatar
RonMN
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2628
Joined: Fri 18 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Minnesota
Top

Unread postby Ebyss » Fri 06 May 2005, 21:46:55

Yeah.. sorry man. I hate it when I hear an idea that I know I had on my own out in public. Ruins everything. There's a link to the space elevator in "The Moon" thread.
We've tried nothin' and we're all out of ideas.

I am only one. I can only do what one can do. But what one can do, I will do. -- John Seymour.
User avatar
Ebyss
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun 20 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Ireland
Top

Unread postby Omnitir » Fri 06 May 2005, 22:40:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Techniques usually used to find oil and gas in the North Sea could help scientists establish whether life could survive on Mars

The article isn’t about oil on Mars and makes no such claims. It’s about using similar techniques oil prospectors use to find oil in the search for life on Mars.

In regards to energy on Mars, the atmosphere is largely methane. So if somehow the PO problems are adverted and the manned Mars mission actually happens, then methane will be the fuel used on our neighbouring red planet. (Though it's hard to imagine mining energy resources on Mars for Earth could ever have an effective EROEI).


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', '
')DON'T say space elevator!!! I thought of that concept before it was public knowledge & decided it would eventually (with continued use) slow down the rotation of the earth I'm sorry to think that somebody else thought of it as well.

Actually, Russian scientist Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, who was inspired by the Eiffel Tower and considered building a similar structure reaching into orbit, first put the idea of a space elevator forth in 1895.

And I imagine that by the time space elevators could slow down the rotation of the Earth by any measurable degree, the sun would have burned all it’s fuel and gone supanova, and by then humans would have either long since died out (along with all life on Earth), or long since moved to another star system. Either way, changing the rotational speed of the Earth is the least of our worries.
:)


Edit - to tone down the harsh words of my original post
Last edited by Omnitir on Sat 07 May 2005, 05:36:09, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Omnitir
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 894
Joined: Sat 02 Apr 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Down Under
Top

Unread postby Raxozanne » Sat 07 May 2005, 03:15:36

Hey don't go all heavy on them they were just having a bit of a laugh, they weren't taking it seriously at all....
Raxozanne
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 945
Joined: Thu 24 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: UK
Top

Unread postby Omnitir » Sat 07 May 2005, 05:42:38

Sorry, I didn’t intend for it to sound harsh, I just thought it was odd linking to an article apparently about oil on Mars which wasn’t about that at all. And then I suppose my astronomical nerdness got the better of me…

So I edited my original post to play nicer :)


*Log’s off and goes outside to look through telescope and dream of the space elevator*
User avatar
Omnitir
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 894
Joined: Sat 02 Apr 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Down Under
Top

Unread postby RonMN » Sat 07 May 2005, 07:41:38

Isn't it funny how lack of voce inflections can lead to such misunderstandings? :) Emoticons just don't cut it! I've always noticed that with Emails...especially at work.
User avatar
RonMN
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2628
Joined: Fri 18 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Minnesota
Top

Unread postby Raxozanne » Sat 07 May 2005, 08:55:56

Well i just assumed that they couldn't possibly be talking seriously about something that nonsensical...I mean space elevators!!!!!!!! :-D
Raxozanne
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 945
Joined: Thu 24 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: UK
Top

Unread postby Ebyss » Sat 07 May 2005, 12:34:56

Yes.. it was definitely not to be taken seriously! And I agree.. sometimes it's impossible to tell whether people are being a smartass or genuine. I was going for "gentle ribbing" with this one. If these things can be done, I hope I'm around to see it.. I'd be the first to book a ride on the space elevator :wink:
We've tried nothin' and we're all out of ideas.

I am only one. I can only do what one can do. But what one can do, I will do. -- John Seymour.
User avatar
Ebyss
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun 20 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Ireland
Top

Unread postby ArimoDave » Sat 07 May 2005, 17:18:51

If you meet someone who really thinks that space elevator is possible, do a quick back of the envelope calculation with the volume of the earth stretched into a string about 1 m diameter and see how far it reachs. Then, show how far Mars', and Venus' orbits are from Earth's orbit. This is the closest these planets can be to the Earth. :-D

ArimoDave
I know exactly where we are;
. . . .
don't know where we're going, but no use in being late.
(Mathew Quigley [Tom Selleck])
User avatar
ArimoDave
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun 17 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Rual ID, USA, World
Top

Unread postby Ebyss » Sat 07 May 2005, 18:32:28

:cry: You lost me at "calculation" :-D
We've tried nothin' and we're all out of ideas.

I am only one. I can only do what one can do. But what one can do, I will do. -- John Seymour.
User avatar
Ebyss
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun 20 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Ireland
Top

Unread postby ArimoDave » Sat 07 May 2005, 19:26:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', ':')cry: You lost me at "calculation" :-D


United States Public Education????
I know exactly where we are;
. . . .
don't know where we're going, but no use in being late.
(Mathew Quigley [Tom Selleck])
User avatar
ArimoDave
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun 17 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Rual ID, USA, World
Top

Re: John Denver, this is for you...

Unread postby eric_b » Sat 07 May 2005, 19:48:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', '[')url=http://www.physorg.com/news4007.html]Oil on Mars[/url]

It appears Mars might be a better candidate for oil harvesting in our solar system. We might even be able to put mirrors on it, and maybe even a space elevator :wink: :)


Hey.. anything's possible.


'John Denver's' fractured and turned into lorenzo and BiGG.

Every good troll's got to shed his or her skin from time to time.
User avatar
eric_b
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1174
Joined: Fri 14 Jan 2005, 04:00:00
Location: us
Top

Unread postby Omnitir » Sat 07 May 2005, 20:19:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ArimoDave', 'I')f you meet someone who really thinks that space elevator is possible, do a quick back of the envelope calculation with the volume of the earth stretched into a string about 1 m diameter and see how far it reachs. Then, show how far Mars', and Venus' orbits are from Earth's orbit. This is the closest these planets can be to the Earth. :-D

ArimoDave


I’m don’t understand what you mean, could you please elaborate? It sound like you’re saying that the largest a thick cable could stretch is the total mass of the Earth??? 8O

It also sounds a bit like you think the space elevator is a tether between two planets (?), which it isn’t; it’s a thin, ultra strong cable about 400 kilometres long, reaching from the ground into LOE with a counter balance at the end. And the “elevator” part is just a climber with it’s own engine and fuel.

Is an ultra-strong 400 kilometre long cable that far-fetched?

I completely believe it is possible, and encourage people to convince me otherwise. It’s certainly within the laws of physics; it’s just a matter of nano-technology (for cable strength) being developed to the point of making the project feasible. And I think the massive benefits of the cable into LOE are obvious – it would allow long-term solutions to energy and mineral resource depletion and over population to be achieved.


Hmmm, it looks like I’ve put up my hand to be a PO techno-cure guy… :cry:
User avatar
Omnitir
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 894
Joined: Sat 02 Apr 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Down Under
Top

Unread postby ArimoDave » Sat 07 May 2005, 21:34:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')s an ultra-strong 400 kilometre long cable that far-fetched?

I completely believe it is possible, and encourage people to convince me otherwise. It’s certainly within the laws of physics; it’s just a matter of nano-technology (for cable strength) being developed to the point of making the project feasible. And I think the massive benefits of the cable into LOE are obvious – it would allow long-term solutions to energy and mineral resource depletion and over population to be achieved.


O.K. You have attained a moderate near earth orbit, with your cable, now what? You are not anywhere near geosync much less near the moon. How do you get to Mars, or anywhere else from the top of your elevator? My calculation was to demonstrate how far Mars, and Venus really are from the Earth. Many people don't have a clue as to how far away they really are.

Also, at 400 km if you are moving at the same angular speed as the earth, if you were to jump off you would not be moving fast enough to stay in orbit.

I think, you need to re-check your cable length. Shouldn't it end at at least geosync? Which, if memory serves, is about 40 000 km. [please verify]

ArimoDave
I know exactly where we are;
. . . .
don't know where we're going, but no use in being late.
(Mathew Quigley [Tom Selleck])
User avatar
ArimoDave
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun 17 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Rual ID, USA, World
Top

Unread postby Ebyss » Sat 07 May 2005, 23:38:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ArimoDave', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', ':')cry: You lost me at "calculation" :-D


United States Public Education????



I come from Ireland. And yes, I can do maths, just not very well. My strengths lie elsewhere... :-D Again.. I wasn't being entirely serious. It is hard to articulate "mild humour" on the internet :cry:
We've tried nothin' and we're all out of ideas.

I am only one. I can only do what one can do. But what one can do, I will do. -- John Seymour.
User avatar
Ebyss
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun 20 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Ireland
Top

Unread postby kerosene » Sun 08 May 2005, 01:50:23

qeo sync distance (com satellites) is around 36 000 km.
As the cable itself has some mass (actually quite a bit) the cable should be longer than that so that it would not fall.

I have not calculated but I assume that we don't have material with sufficient weight/strength ratio that would hold its own mass, let alone the payload.

Earth would slow down if you took mass and lifted it high up but if you were bringing stuff down it would actually accelerate.

I think the 400 km cable should be enough though. It just needs to be attached to a trainlike system on earth that travels around the whole equator. Think how cool it would be to have a train with the cable to the skies speed by. Emphasis on speed as its speed would be tens of thousands of mph. (estimate - maybe less - compare to orbital speeed of space shuttle).

So - very nice ideas but not much more.




Heikki

edit: grammar
User avatar
kerosene
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu 31 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Top

Unread postby katkinkate » Sun 08 May 2005, 04:31:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raxozanne', 'W')ell i just assumed that they couldn't possibly be talking seriously about something that nonsensical...I mean space elevators!!!!!!!! :-D


http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast07sep_1.htm

NASA's taking it seriously. Although whether they'll have the resources to actually build it is another story.
Kind regards, Katkinkate

"The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops,
but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
Masanobu Fukuoka
User avatar
katkinkate
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1276
Joined: Sat 16 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Top

Unread postby Omnitir » Sun 08 May 2005, 07:17:52

The 400 Km figure is what I read at one site suggesting low orbit, but I now agree a high geosynch orbit at around 36000 Km would be needed.

Hmm, I wonder if the main problem here is the term space “elevator”, making people think of a traditional elevator reaching into space? Maybe it should be called an Earth-Orbit cable or something, so people don’t automatically assume its sci-fi?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ArimoDave', '
')O.K. You have attained a moderate near earth orbit, with your cable, now what?

I realise you were pointing out this needs to be in high orbit, which I agree, but assuming we have this cable reaching into high-orbit, what are the benefits now?

Well now we can send large payloads into space at a fraction of the cost. The possibilities are enormous. For one thing, goodbye jet airliners, hello “drop-ships” – for the price of the energy used to climb a cable a re-entry vehicle could go anywhere on Earth, low on fuel consumption and pollution. The trip may take a few days, but its much more sensible (and affordable) then modern jet aircraft (and much more fun!).

An even better and more obvious benefit is cheaply setting up massive PV systems to harness the unfiltered solar rays for use on Earth – the answer to our energy crisis. Another benefit is the ability to get sensitive equipment into orbit that cannot currently be launched by conventional means, which would greatly enhance the abilities of satellites. Then there are the benefits of space exploration and colonisation. Getting from Earth obit to anywhere else in the system is easy once a cheap “launch” system exists.

The hardest part about doing things in space is getting into orbit. A cheap, slow ride up a cable is a much more realistic way to do it then blasting massive chemical rockets at breakneck speeds to escape Earth’s gravitational pull. It also more sensible then most standard forms of aviation (though probably slower).

The only thing stopping it from happening right now is a lack of an ultra light, ultra strong fibre to construct the cable with, which is what nanotubes will offer in a few years. The ten-year, $10 billion estimates of this project sound realistic. A space elevator project would actually be much more simple and affordable then many of the worlds more common (and more expensive) construction projects.

Here’s some quotes from physicist Bradley Edwards of Eureka Scientific in Berkeley, California, from this article:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Even though the challenges to bring the space elevator to reality are substantial, there are no physical or economic reasons why it can't be built
…
I'm convinced that the space elevator is practical and doable. In 12 years, we could be launching tons of payload every three days, at just a little over a couple hundred dollars a pound," he said.
…
(About attaining the needed quantity of carbon nanotube fibres): That quantity of material is going to be around well before five years time. It's not going to take long,"

If budget estimates are correct, we could do it for under $10 billion.

And regarding the commercial fabrication of carbon nanotubes, here’s a press release from only two weeks ago: LiftPort Group, the Space Elevator Companies, to Open Its First Carbon Nanotube Manufacturing Facility
Quotes from link:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')carbon nanotube composites are lighter than fiberglass and have the potential to be up to 100 times stronger than steel.

Opening a commercial production facility enables us to generate revenues in the shorter term by meeting the growing market need for this material. At the same time, it enables us to conduct research and development in this arena for our longer term goal of a commercial space elevator."


Of course mass production of carbon nanotubes could have wide spread benefits in many technologies, including highly improved fuel consumption in cars and aircraft.



So hopefully some of you people who think the concept is just sci-fi, now have a more realistic opinion about the space elevator concept. :) Even with PO on the horizon, it’s quite possible that a project costing less the $10 billion, and with such massive returns on investment, can be achieved in a little over 10 years.
User avatar
Omnitir
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 894
Joined: Sat 02 Apr 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Down Under
Top

Unread postby ozonehole » Sun 08 May 2005, 08:03:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')In regards to energy on Mars, the atmosphere is largely methane. So if somehow the PO problems are adverted and the manned Mars mission actually happens, then methane will be the fuel used on our neighbouring red planet. (Though it's hard to imagine mining energy resources on Mars for Earth could ever have an effective EROEI).


The atmosphere of Mars is almost entirely carbon dioxide. Recently, some tiny traces of methane were detected, which is exciting to scientists because it could indicate the presence of life.

If Mars had methane and oil in abundance, it would be useless for energy because of the lack of oxygen (necessary for combustion). If humans someday colonize Mars, they'll have to rely on either solar or nuclear power. Windmills are out - although Mars is windy, the atmosphere is so thin that you don't derive much benefit from the wind.

cheers,
OZ
User avatar
ozonehole
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed 20 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Top
Next
Post a reply

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest



cron