[julianj]

Domestic Tradable Quotas DTQs


Environmentalist and author David Fleming has proposed a system of individual adult “carbon tradingâ€

[clv101]

I'm surprised this post hasn't had any response. I've recently been reading up on Domestic Tradable Quotas - the concept is fantastic. The perfect mechanism for fossil fuel reduction on an individual level. Far more effective than straight taxes like we have today on fuel. I can see implementation challenges, but isn’t this the kind of solution we are looking for regarding peak oil and climate change?

[Xelat]

It sounds AWESOME

EXCEPT - the potential for intimidation and exploitation of individuals. It would be so easy to coerce people into giving up their quota and it would be easy to exceed your quota and not get caught.

It seems to me the lowest level at which such things are workable is at the medium sized business, and local gov't level.

What do you think?

[julianj]

N.,

There will be no more intimidation than you get with an ATM card: you'll get a carbon-trading card and a pin, and your ration. Somebody steals your card, without a pin, its useless, plus it will be your allocation:

Basically you transfer your carbon allocation to somebody "illegally" which will I'm sure be made a criminal offence, you and they get busted. They steal and use it, transactions tracked by computer, they get busted.

The most important purchase will be petrol. Go to a petrol station with a reported stolen card, even with a pin: the machine swallows the card and photographs your numberplate. The cops come a-callin'..

So how can someone steal your ration? The cards will be much less easy to counterfeit than old fashioned ration cards.

Incidentally, here in the UK many poor people pay their gas/lecky bills with a prepay key at newsagents and post offices. I've never heard about any fraud or intimidation for this, and this would be easier than a pin-card.

Plus temperamentally, fair systems will mean that cheats will face social pressure/ostracisation.

I'm not saying there won't be some new, innovative crimes, but they will be a very small part of the system.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('julianj', 'B')asically you transfer your carbon allocation to somebody "illegally" which will I'm sure be made a criminal offence, you and they get busted. They steal and use it, transactions tracked by computer, they get busted.

[aahala]

As a means of rationing, DTQs are a down right silly idea.

Rationing is effective if and only if there is no effective way to cash the ration. If it's legal or if a black market is allowed to widely develop, you have added a system that does nothing -- increasing price would do at
least as well and perhaps better in reducing amount demanded.

We already have a means to transfer value from one individual to another, it's called money. Fully tradeable energy coupons is nothing more than money with someone else's face on it.

A rose is a rose is a rose. If you get a piece of paper that can buy energy or you can get $100 for it, the value is still $100, whatever you use it for. If you buy energy, you have spent $100. . .or trade it for $100 and spend it for something else.

[julianj]

At last a debate has got going on this, thanks people! I thought it had disappeared into the great forum graveyard.

DTQ's website and explanation:
Domestic Tradable Quotas

As I understand it and this comes from the website and talking to David, this is how I think it works



The carbon trading system goes like this:

1. You as an individual get your budget/allocation/ration whatever you want to call it, in the form of a computerised account, plus an ATM card for transactions, like your bank account. There are no "physical coupons" involved.

When you purchase some fuel for your car, or when you pay for your home heating and lighting, along with the money you'd pay as normal, your "carbon account" is debited also.

2. The carbon budget (total national allocation) is decided years in advance. David's looking at up to 20 years, but I can't see governments committing themselves to more than 5 years in advance.

3. The carbon ration you are allowed will diminish every year -every year you have to conserve more .

4. If you are frugal, and have Carbon Units to spare, you can sell them, give them away, do what you like with them. There will be a free market in them. David doesn't eBay but I really saw that as a model - you bid for carbon units like that, and as they will be scarce, I expect they will go for more than face value.

5. If you are wasteful, and are overspending your ration, you will have to buy carbon units at more than face value. Or cutback on inessential motoring, say, so that you have enough Carbon Units to get you to work.

I expect this will gradually force people to economise, and will be progressive taxation, eg the wasteful will be penalised financially.

I can see a downside though: old ladies in supermarkets will go on about how many carbon units they've saved that week

Even if you are rich and run a Rolls Royce, and don't care about the costs, the irritation factor of having to buy more carbon units all the time would eventually- I think - make that person change to a less wasteful car.

As we go further up the retail chain,
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')DTQs website:
When consumers (citizens, firms or the government itself) make purchases of fuel or energy, they surrender quota to the energy retailer, accessing their quota account by (for instance) using their carbon card or direct debit. The retailer then surrenders carbon units when buying energy from the wholesaler. Finally, the primary energy provider surrenders units back to the Register when the company pumps, mines or imports fuel. This closes the loop.

[julianj]

Here's some news on DTQs

This morning I received a package from Colin Challen, UK MP who is one of the most energy aware MPs.

Note: DTQs will help to alleviate both Oil/Energy conservation and Global Warming

Colin is sponsoring an Early Day Motion No. 563, about DTQs. Please could any UK people here contact their MP and ask them to sign it.

And EDM is a parliamentary "heads up" for MPs, alerting them to a subject they should be aware of. The wording of the motion is:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his House congratulates the Prime Minister on making climate change a priority for his presidency of the G8 and believes that for this to transcend short-term political cycles policies must be introduced which include every adult in tackling global warming and that everyone must assume some personal responsibility for their carbon emissions and further notes that in practice the most equitable, efficient and effective way of doing this is by introducing domestic tradable quotas.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('julianj', 'E')ven if you are rich and run a Rolls Royce, and don't care about the costs, the irritation factor of having to buy more carbon units all the time would eventually- I think - make that person change to a less wasteful car.

[clv101]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'I')t would be interesting if the units kept rising in price as time went on (as they should).

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clv101', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'I')t would be interesting if the units kept rising in price as time went on (as they should).

[Taskforce_Unity]

I wonder if this can get any political ground, maybe after a real crisis.
It sounds like a solid enough capitalistic based system.

[Liamj]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clv101', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'I')t would be interesting if the units kept rising in price as time went on (as they should).

[gg3]

I think the system has merit. It rewards conservation, internalizes the cost of excessive consumption, and does this via a market mechanism.

Over the lengthy implementation-period, there will be predictable economic incentives for relevant shifts in infrastructure. Developers will cease building commuter suburbs. Companies will shift more of their workforces to telecommuting. Rail and bus systems will be implemented and expanded. Electric utilities will be able to plan nuclear, wind, and large-scale solar installations. Homeowners will be able to plan residential solar installations. Auto makers will be able to shift production toward more efficient models. Makers of biofuels will be able to plan their investment and construction cycles. Etc.

As far as rich people buying up poor peoples' energy credits: that might be an interesting solution to poverty and underemployment and crappy-wage jobs. Think of it as voluntary taxation to support poor folks via direct payments (rather than involuntary taxation to support them via a welfare bureaucracy).

If humans are rational, they'll do it.