[mustang19]

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.7b00997

Major sustainability problem nobody talks about. Steel will eventually be too contaminated to continue recycling. In fact the recycling process is what causes this problem, if you just let it corrode it would return to the soil.
By 2050 recycling will be useless, you will need to make new steel with wood/iron ore and the price of everything will be more (not that anyone will live that long).

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mustang19', 'h')ttps://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.7b00997

Major sustainability problem nobody talks about. Steel will eventually be too contaminated to continue recycling. In fact the recycling process is what causes this problem, if you just let it corrode it would return to the soil.
By 2050 recycling will be useless, you will need to make new steel with wood/iron ore and the price of everything will be more (not that anyone will live that long).

[Newfie]

It is an interesting problem. I have been hearing non-specific complaints about steel in recent years. The complaint is generally that current steel has a high percent of recycled material and the product is inferior. I have also heard of steel products being contaminated with other material besides copper, to the extent of special heat resistant bolts finding their way into plate or bar.

It seems the general degeneration of steel is a genuine concern. Thanks file it in the “Resource Depletion” bin if things I worry about for humanity. Just another nail in the coffin.

[mustang19]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'I')t is an interesting problem. I have been hearing non-specific complaints about steel in recent years. The complaint is generally that current steel has a high percent of recycled material and the product is inferior. I have also heard of steel products being contaminated with other material besides copper, to the extent of special heat resistant bolts finding their way into plate or bar.

It seems the general degeneration of steel is a genuine concern. Thanks file it in the “Resource Depletion” bin if things I worry about for humanity. Just another nail in the coffin.

[Subjectivist]

This is a silly topic, running scrap steel back through basic refining to separate the iron from the alloying elements. Then you can recombine them in whatever formula you prefer.

[Gmark]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he steel industry in North America has been recycling steel scrap for more than 150 years. The steel industry needs scrap to produce new steel, which ensures that all steel products contain anywhere from 25 percent up to 100 percent recycled content. It also is cheaper to recycle steel than it is to mine virgin ore to manufacture new steel. New ore is still mined in order to supplement production of steel and steel products.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Subjectivist', 'T')his is a silly topic, running scrap steel back through basic refining to separate the iron from the alloying elements. Then you can recombine them in whatever formula you prefer.

[Newfie]

Try googling

Recycled steel copper contamination

It seems it is a real thing. Not catastrophic in itself, but something that is problematic.

One paper is linked below. There are others.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Abstract
Copper and tin, as tramp elements in the steel scrap, cause some harmful effects, such as hot shortness caused by a loss of ductility and surface defects. It is also difficult to maintain the quality of the product because the amount of the residual constituents in steel scrap is not consistent. The secondary steel products require consistent copper content and standard due to the limited use of the product for the various applications. Thermodynamically, removing copper from scrap is a viable option, but in reality, the impurities and the included copper in the melt of steel scrap are difficult to remove by conventional methods. Besides, the research of the recycled steel scrap regarding iron and impurities is limited, and it needs to be conducted, in terms of physical and chemical techniques, as the preliminary study to find the efficient separation method.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'T')ry googling

Recycled steel copper contamination

It seems it is a real thing. Not catastrophic in itself, but something that is problematic.

One paper is linked below. There are others.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Abstract
Copper and tin, as tramp elements in the steel scrap, cause some harmful effects, such as hot shortness caused by a loss of ductility and surface defects. It is also difficult to maintain the quality of the product because the amount of the residual constituents in steel scrap is not consistent. The secondary steel products require consistent copper content and standard due to the limited use of the product for the various applications. Thermodynamically, removing copper from scrap is a viable option, but in reality, the impurities and the included copper in the melt of steel scrap are difficult to remove by conventional methods. Besides, the research of the recycled steel scrap regarding iron and impurities is limited, and it needs to be conducted, in terms of physical and chemical techniques, as the preliminary study to find the efficient separation method.

[Newfie]

Tanada,

Elsewhere I read that simply crushing alternators and such along with steel then leaves enough copper smooshed into the steel to be an issue, even if the copper and steel are mechanically separated afterward.

I don’t know, just repeating what I read.

We could do better, but we don’t. Where have I heard that before.

[theluckycountry]

From mustang's article...

Making steel from scrap in an Electric Arc Furnace (EAF) leads to around one-third the greenhouse gas emissions associated with steelmaking from ore. (2) As steel production accounts for approximately 25% of industrial emissions, (3) further reliance on recycling to supply demanded products is key to climate change mitigation

Somehow I think by 2050 copper contamination will not be the issue with steel recycling, powering the arc furnaces will. Oh yes, that's right, endless fields of solar panels lol lol.

Energy consumption varies from 350-700 kWh/ton of steel produced.

http://heattreatconsortium.com/metals-a ... nsumption/
https://www.dancarbon.com/q/eaf/electri ... n-187.html

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '
')Somehow I think by 2050 copper contamination will not be the issue with steel recycling, powering the arc furnaces will. Oh yes, that's right, endless fields of solar panels lol lol.

[vtsnowedin]

I find it interesting that one of the steel culvert manufactures uses "coppersteel" as a product name implying they rust slower then a straight steel culvert.
Copper melts at a lower temperature then iron or steel so it should not be a problem to drain it off early in the process of remelting scrap. Of course you could just use scrap that did not have electric motors and alternators thrown in whole. Ship plates ,bridge beams, railroad rails etc.
Also considering the demand for copper and the price of it a industry of disassembling motors etc to recover the copper will probably become a reality long before the scrap steel supply becomes unusable for sheet steel.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')n actual problem there is that generally, the education level of such a large proportion of the voting and working public is so poor that they can't tell the difference between credible fact and various sorts of nonsense. Even with the internet to use their supposed educations and do some checking.

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')n actual problem there is that generally, the education level of such a large proportion of the voting and working public is so poor that they can't tell the difference between credible fact and various sorts of nonsense. Even with the internet to use their supposed educations and do some checking.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', 'B')ut in terms of education in general, I don't think education explains it all. Such was my assumption, 15 years ago when I entered the peak oil world, "if only they knew more", "if only i could show them references and knowledge", "if only they knew this science"...if only"...."if only"...."

I started dealing with the folks who only had PhD's, figuring that education wasn't the issue with them, by definition. What I learned instead is that belief is far more powerful than education. Education only meant they could use intelligience and their experience (even within the fields of science in question) to justify their beliefs, defend their beliefs, and could ignore facts and logic just as steadfast as a religious zealot. Heaven's Gaters with degrees if you will.

So no, education isn't itself a solution, and misinformation just makes it worse because now to even become educated you've got to understand how to tell good information from bad.

[JuanP]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', 'Y')eah every time I ran into one of those types I always thought of a SG-1 quote:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')It doesn't matter what the truth is. They won't hear of it, no matter what you say. They wouldn't know the truth if it was standing right in front of them. It's all lies and propaganda as far as they're concerned: we're wrong, they're right, they're good, we're bad.

[mousepad]

But how do you guys know the truth?
You claiming "they are wrong" because you are the true seeker of the truth and only you know truth and only you recognize truth not only when it is standing right in front of you, but also when it is hidden behind a forest of trees.

Could it be that the truth is not reachable at all? But it can only be approached? And depending the side you approach it from you get different views of the truth?

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')It doesn't matter what the truth is. They won't hear of it, no matter what you say. They wouldn't know the truth if it was standing right in front of them. It's all lies and propaganda as far as they're concerned: we're wrong, they're right, they're good, we're bad.

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mousepad', 'B')ut how do you guys know the truth?