[Subjectivist]

A thought provoking blog I stumbled over googling salary class privilege that Six keeps talking about. What do you think?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he transition from an economy focused on domestic production to an economy focused on global exploitation takes plenty of time. In the case of the United States, it took a hundred years, from the first wave of American imperial expansion in 1898 to the temporary triumph of globalization in the 1980s. The transition the other way, though, happens a good deal more quickly, as a faltering hegemon generally gets shoved aside by rising powers rather than being allowed to decay slowly in peace. The aftermath of the Soviet Union’s collapse is a good working model here: once the Soviet system imploded, Russia suddenly had to do without the large subsidies it received from the rest of the Eastern bloc, and most of a decade of raw economic chaos followed as the Russian economy struggled to adapt to the task of meeting its own needs domestically. Soviet Russia, it bears noting, was much less dependent on overseas imports for goods and services than today’s America, so the post-Soviet experience should be considered a lower bound for what we’re in for.

The other pillar has similar implications. An economy based on the breakneck consumption of natural resources tends to concentrate influence in the hands of those who control resource flows directly or indirectly, and in today’s America, once again, these tend to be disproportionately members of the salary class. An economy based on the conservation of natural resources tends to concentrate influence instead in the hands of those who own sustainable resources such as land, or those who work directly with those resources; again, the conflict between owners and laborers determines the distribution of wealth and privilege in such societies. Transitioning from a conserver economy to a consumer economy takes plenty of time—in the case of the United States, the better part of two hundred years—while the transition the other way tends, once more, to be much more rapid once the resources run short.

[Hawkcreek]

Yes, reading Greer is my favorite Thursday morning thing.
Some may not agree with him about some things, but he always has a logical, consistent approach to the problems of our day.
I think his biggest failing is to assume that history is always the biggest determiner of the future. "As it happened, it will always happen again".
But he is one smart cookie, so I wouldn't want to put money on my predictions against his. Matter of fact, he is the one who has convinced me that we are looking at a long, slow, staggered collapse, rather than a fast crash.
He has written some interesting novels, too. I bought a few, and liked them.

[GHung]

Hawk said; "I think his biggest failing is to assume that history is always the biggest determiner of the future. "As it happened, it will always happen again".

It took me a while to figure out that this isn't quite what Greer is trying to teach, even though a certain way to get his ire up is to say "this time is different". Much as Tainter posited in Collapse of Complex Societies, Greer follows the line that, even though details and technologies may have changed, human societies tend to follow the same general patterns with predictable results. Our collective behaviors haven't changed much in the last few thousand years, at least the behaviors that matter much.

My take is that those behaviors seem to be hard-coded, and as societies rise, per-capita use of energy and resources increases until that resource base goes into decline, at which point collective attempts to maintain the status quo take on more complex though less affective forms. Once it becomes evident those responses can't work, the society goes into decline/contraction and eventually collapses in some way. Hard to see in real-time, which is one reason we have so many people in denial.

Resource depletion and climate change are much the same as they have been for numerous cultures throughout history in terms of effect, except that this time it's global, our resource use and environmental degradation are much more extreme due to our advanced technology, and there's nowhere to run to. One big difference I see is that we now clearly have the means to ruin our entire planet and bring about our own extinction. Then, again, we're a resourceful and stubborn species who've squeezed through other bottlenecks. Whether or not humans can survive extreme global resource depletion, and global warming followed by nuclear winter and the poisoning of our biosphere is a big question I doubt Greer and others can answer. It's fun to try I guess.

[Hawkcreek]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', '
')It took me a while to figure out that this isn't quite what Greer is trying to teach, even though a certain way to get his ire up is to say "this time is different". Much as Tainter posited in Collapse of Complex Societies, Greer follows the line that, even though details and technologies may have changed, human societies tend to follow the same general patterns with predictable results. Our collective behaviors haven't changed much in the last few thousand years, at least the behaviors that matter much.

[radon1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Subjectivist', 'T')he aftermath of the Soviet Union’s collapse is a good working model here: once the Soviet system imploded, Russia suddenly had to do without the large subsidies it received from the rest of the Eastern bloc, and most of a decade of raw economic chaos followed as the Russian economy struggled to adapt to the task of meeting its own needs domestically.

[Paulo1]

Yeah Hawk, I am not as pessimistic, either. Why? I never discount the ability of people to adapt or surprise. While many on this blog will disagree with this statement, not everything that is human is bad and/or is a threat to the world. We can do better in most ways, but in many cases it comes down to having either a half full, or half empty viewpoint. I will continue to look for inspiration rather than assume doom is full on and inevitable.

Greer told me to pick up and move as my home is about 25-30 feet above sea level. (We live close to an estuary on the west coast). Hmmmm, I am 60. How fast will sea level rise? Meanwhile, every fall I have an unlimited supply of bright silver salmon swimming to my dock. It's a no-brainer as far as I can see. We are 6 km upstream from the ocean. There are only two houses below us and they are way out of sight.

Waterworld, here we come!!

[Ibon]

Mount Totumas !

I follow Greer's writings. I don't always agree but I recognize that he is quite brilliant.

I am also one of those who does think it is potentially different this time in that we may back ourselves so deep into a corner that we actually start addressing self regulation.

[vtsnowedin]

As long as I'm not sitting on top of a mountain of debt I think I'll make out alright.

[Hawkcreek]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'M')ount Totumas !

I follow Greer's writings. I don't always agree but I recognize that he is quite brilliant.

I am also one of those who does think it is potentially different this time in that we may back ourselves so deep into a corner that we actually start addressing self regulation.

[ennui2]

Greer believes in AGW but he goes overboard in painting climate-change uberdoomers as being driven by doomsday psychology. He then uses this to downplay the risks of AGW. The fact is there's more than enough data to lead one believe in near-term human extinction, and in a faster timeline than his long-descent books outline. He may be a druid and into appropriate technology but climate scientist he isn't.

More to the point he seems more interested in being an agent provocateur, tearing various subgroups that are generally within his tribe a new asshole than nearly any other form of commentary other than the usual pot-shots at TPTB. I'd like to see him more evenly dole out his bile sometimes, like maybe a few more darts thrown at the Koch brothers or Rex Tillerman to even out going after Rob Hopkins or 350.org. He might accomplish more by being more inclusive and building a bigger tent rather than being so judgmental and snarky. I mean, at least the lefty/green groups mean well. They don't deserve to be eviscerated the way he so often does to them. But "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" style chest-beating is how you build an audience. It's the same formula that Orlov, Kunstler, and others follow to some success.

As for Greer's brilliant prose, he's much too verbose. One of his blog posts could easily compress down to 1/10th its size if he were to just stop teasing and beating around the bush. I always find it a chore to read through rather than skim his blog because it just drones on and on and on without really adding anything new to his argument.

[Hawkcreek]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Paulo1', 'Y')eah Hawk, I am not as pessimistic, either. Why? I never discount the ability of people to adapt or surprise. While many on this blog will disagree with this statement, not everything that is human is bad and/or is a threat to the world. We can do better in most ways, but in many cases it comes down to having either a half full, or half empty viewpoint. I will continue to look for inspiration rather than assume doom is full on and inevitable.

Greer told me to pick up and move as my home is about 25-30 feet above sea level. (We live close to an estuary on the west coast). Hmmmm, I am 60. How fast will sea level rise? Meanwhile, every fall I have an unlimited supply of bright silver salmon swimming to my dock. It's a no-brainer as far as I can see. We are 6 km upstream from the ocean. There are only two houses below us and they are way out of sight.

Waterworld, here we come!!

[GHung]

.... on the other hand, I've always have a hard time with arm-chair quarterbacks or commentators who've never played the game. It's not that there have never been great thinkers who've been nowhere; done nothin', but I tend to trust experience over observation. Nothing like a little PTSD to change one's perspective. Seems too many academics these days deal in absolutes about things they've only studied from afar or read about. Does distancing one's self from these things improve objectivity or hinder it? I personally tend to dismiss the opinions of people who tell me how the world works, but have never immersed themselves in it in any real way. I could be wrong.....

[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', '.')... on the other hand, I've always have a hard time with arm-chair quarterbacks or commentators who've never played the game. It's not that there have never been great thinkers who've been nowhere; done nothin', but I tend to trust experience over observation. Nothing like a little PTSD to change one's perspective. Seems too many academics these days deal in absolutes about things they've only studied from afar or read about. Does distancing one's self from these things improve objectivity or hinder it? I personally tend to dismiss the opinions of people who tell me how the world works, but have never immersed themselves in it in any real way. I could be wrong.....

[regardingpo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'A')s for Greer's brilliant prose, he's much too verbose. One of his blog posts could easily compress down to 1/10th its size if he were to just stop teasing and beating around the bush. I always find it a chore to read through rather than skim his blog because it just drones on and on and on without really adding anything new to his argument.

[onlooker]

I think in two respects, this time is different. First the challenges will be greater than at any time previous as the whole Earth now is in a collapsing state so nowhere to go too plus the specter of runaway global warming seems monstrous. However in another way I think it is different. That is I feel that unlike any other time, our whole set of social contacts and institutions now stand to be discredited. This will create a blank slate to try a reinvent civilization and society. This coupled with the level of dislocation and sheer disaster and suffering can be the catalyst for a true permanent and profound change of conscience in humans.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('regardingpo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'A')s for Greer's brilliant prose, he's much too verbose. One of his blog posts could easily compress down to 1/10th its size if he were to just stop teasing and beating around the bush. I always find it a chore to read through rather than skim his blog because it just drones on and on and on without really adding anything new to his argument.

[Hawkcreek]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'G')r
As for Greer's brilliant prose, he's much too verbose. One of his blog posts could easily compress down to 1/10th its size if he were to just stop teasing and beating around the bush. I always find it a chore to read through rather than skim his blog because it just drones on and on and on without really adding anything new to his argument.