[onlooker]

I pose this question because it is evident to me that democracy and the will of the people probably never hardly existed in this country contrary to public opinion and that certainly it does not at this time. I ask for those responding to just ponder the way that money and power have so influenced the governments over time. How corruption is so ubiquitous around the world. How special interests have always distorted the policies of nations and groups. How the rich and powerful have always swayed the course of history. In light of all that, are we so naive to think the US was any different at any time. I mean contemplate the words of the Declaration of Independence "All men are created equal". Now realize then that from the founding of this country our founding fathers had slaves and slavery existed. So to even for a second believe the masses really could shape important decisions being made is just naive. We have been reduced to simple consumers because we were never much more then that. In fact we were worse, we meaning the masses were slaves to emperors, pharaohs and kings. So now we fast forward to present we are spoon fed this constant stream of hot topic issues which in fact are not hot topic. Abortion, gay rights even handguns are not hot button they are trivial diversions from the real issues of climate change, peak oil, economic collapse etc. I even was slightly targeted for being proud of not voting or getting involved on this site. I stand by this. Instead I have chosen to continue to learn the way the world really works and spend my time and effort on my immediate well being as well as my loved ones. How can anyone at this point see any purpose in participating in a totally dysfunctional and corrupt system.

[KaiserJeep]

People are imperfect, and the society they exist in reflects imperfection.

The constitutional republic we Americans live in is just as imperfect as our other institutions. It has however resulted in generating more personal wealth and more personal freedom and more personal opportunity to excel than any other form of government tried. Various flavors of socialism have been tried and none can compare to the USA, and none have ever scaled to 300+ million people, either.

The malaise that effects the entire world is simply the impact of too many people in a limited environment. We have a labor surplus, too many consumers, too many people looking for a shortcut which will remove from their shoulders the need to work, to conserve wealth for the future, and to act responsibly in general. Add to this a complex technology that requires educated and serious attention to manage. The level of difficulty in leading a long, productive, and rewarding career is very high, relatively few can manage.

You need not pay attention to the constant stream of manufactured issues from the MSM. Note that these serve to divert your attention from the incredibly inept manuverings of the government, the media, and our so called leaders. Pay attention to the things that matter, ignore false controversies, and live your life for you and your descendents.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', ' ') I even was slightly targeted for being proud of not voting or getting involved on this site. I stand by this.

[SeaGypsy]

Lol very droll planty...

[davep]

If a former president no longer has faith in the US political system, things are bad. https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')ormer president Jimmy Carter said Tuesday on the nationally syndicated radio show the Thom Hartmann Program that the United States is now an “oligarchy” in which “unlimited political bribery” has created “a complete subversion of our political system as a payoff to major contributors.” Both Democrats and Republicans, Carter said, “look upon this unlimited money as a great benefit to themselves.”

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', ' ') I even was slightly targeted for being proud of not voting or getting involved on this site. I stand by this.

[SeaGypsy]

Planty is very well known around her OL, he is thoroughly republican & not displeased that a lefty greeny wanna be revolutionary chooses not to vote/ participate. That's why I 'scold' you, because your enemy votes. It doesn't matter if what you vote for doesn't happen, it is still a vote against what you reckon sucks the worst. Takes a few minutes every few years, what's the big deal? Opting out isn't changing anything so why so high falutin about non participation? Sure, hate the system, but present something else & either run or push others to run it, else just pissing in the wind really.

[onlooker]

Yeah Sea, still I hope at least someone like Bernie Sanders got some traction and would really be competitive as I would not hesitate to vote for him. As it is I will vote for the Democrat (Hillary) just to counter any Republican.

[SeaGypsy]

Now way would I do either, here we can number right through as I always do if there is anyone to vote for & heck, we have sex party, auto enthusiasts party, wikileaks party, hemp party, & some of the freaks get a seat now & then. The protest counts permanently.

[Pops]

As opposed to what?

[SeaGypsy]

As opposed to saying nothing to power, which is what Onlooker's position is/was. As pathetic as the system is, it is the system & choosing to say nothing to it seems to imply acceptance & or laziness dressed as rebellion.

[Newfie]

Well I have lost any faith in the U.S. police iCal system. Zip, nada.

[Pops]

You can say anything you want to power here. Which, I might add, is something you weren't able to do at all in most places until fairly recently and in many places you still can not. We've had that right since the 1700s Number One on the Bill of Rights...
Pretty sure it is not a constitutional guarantee everywhere; still. Not in the UK, how about AU?

We have had representative government since most people were kissing their inbred heads of state on the feet. Has voting been universal? no it hasn't, but it pretty well has always gone off without a lot of gunfire, again not something common everywhere.

So yeah we had slaves, yeah rich people protect their interests, yeah money buys power.

So what?

What is the option?

Not voting?

Yeah, that'll fix it.

LoL

It is fun to bitch, but it would be nice to see a little appreciation for what we do have from time to time.

[onlooker]

Actually, the assault on Democracy has been multi-pronged. One is that personhood cited. Another is the rolling back of Unions and Union activity. But the more egregious ways of subverting democracy have actually been more subtle and insidious. The incorporation of the Media into the Corporate infrastructure. The beguiling myths spread of the benefits of capitalism ie. The American Dream. The financial system that has slowly but steadily deteriorated the financial status of millions of Americans which is was done wholly without the consent of the people. An ingrained two-party system which gives the illusion of choice but in reality gives none. Basically, an elite agenda has subverted democracy on many fronts by utilizing the power of money and co-opting powerful institutions and spreading it's influence into every nook and cranny of society. If you do not believe me listen to this speech by former President Kennedy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhkjYJA ... sw&index=3

[Cog]

MSNBC is a corporation. Are they going to be forbidden to criticize Republicans during an election campaign under your proposed amendment to free speech?

SCOTUS ruled correctly on this issue.

The reason Dems got all jazzed up over this is because a conservative group was attempting to show a film critical of Hillary during the 2008 primaries. The McCain-Feingold Act prevented them from doing so.

Political speech and speech critical of politicians is what the First Amendment is all about. Whether that speech originates from an individual or a group of individuals comprising a corporation is irrelevant as the court correctly decided.

Oh and the there are very good reasons why corporations have personhood. You would not like the result if they were not.

[onlooker]

MSNBC, is out outlet for views from persons, who are free to criticize anyone they wish. Pray Cog tell us why if corporations were not considered persons that would be bad for all of us?

[Cog]

Because corporations have to be able to act as if they were individuals. Consider this. If you wanted to sue a corporation for a faulty product that caused death, are you going to send a tort action to every single stockholder? Because it is the stockholders who ultimately own companies. And how could a corporation protects its patents or trademark from competitors unless it can act as an individual?

Corporations have personhood because the legal system requires it.

Going further with this. Without personhood a corporation could never petition Congress to halt legislation that is harmful to the their products or services.

Yes, it is well understood that the personhood of corporations is a legal creation. They can't vote for instance. But it is a necessary creation to conduct business.

You seem to want to exempt news corporations from your censorship? Why they should be any different than any other corporation. If MSNBC runs a one hour hit piece on a Republican candidate, aren't they expending money to affect a political outcome?

SCOTUS got this one absolutely right.

[SeaGypsy]

Well put Cog. Basically the buck has to stop with 'someone' for the system to work. Anyone who hates corporate personhood should be aware the alternative is industrial oligarchy/ feudalism. While corporatism is often enabling bad behaviour, it is the enabler for economic collective enterprise around the world for good or bad. Would 'Sea Sheppard' or Greenpeace or Medicine Sans Frontiers exist without corporations? Doubtfully.