[Pops]

Many assessments take for granted that the US GOV. will be nonexistent within 3-5 years post peak. This seems preposterous to me. I may be deluded, but I believe the GOV is me.

The senators, congressmen, justices and administration aren’t the GOV; I am. The military, FEMA, Ashcroft, and Bush aren’t; I am.

I may not like the party in power, or the policies it promotes, but I like the fact that while the last election was possibly the most contentious in history - no one fired one shot in the street.

Don’t relegate post-peak America to history. We’ll still be here.

[k_semler]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America', '.')..That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness...

[k_semler]

Ah shit. I did not mean to put in quotes the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th paragraphs. I used the </quote> tag instead of </url>. I would appriciate it if the Admin could add an edit button to the open forums to edit your posts like in the roundtable fourms.

[EDIT by OilBurner: I've changed your post as you described]

[Fellow slave]

The relationship between the US population and the relatively tiny number of government bodies sort of reminds me of a Southern Plantation, pre Civil War; don't think it took that many people to keep those slaves in line either. I wonder how many warm bodies Stalin had on the government payroll in relationship to the total Soviet population when he went on his mass extermination binge. Same for Hitler and his bunch. All in all, I think you will find that it really doesn't take all that much manpower to keep us under their collective thumb.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fellow slave', 'T')he relationship between the US population and the relatively tiny number of government bodies sort of reminds me of a Southern Plantation, pre Civil War; don't think it took that many people to keep those slaves in line either. I wonder how many warm bodies Stalin had on the government payroll in relationship to the total Soviet population when he went on his mass extermination binge. Same for Hitler and his bunch. All in all, I think you will find that it really doesn't take all that much manpower to keep us under their collective thumb.

[DDHTF]

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinburgh) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior.
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence.
From Bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage."

[MadScientist]

and we are so dependant :\

[JayHMorrison]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fellow slave', 'T')he relationship between the US population and the relatively tiny number of government bodies sort of reminds me of a Southern Plantation, pre Civil War; don't think it took that many people to keep those slaves in line either. I wonder how many warm bodies Stalin had on the government payroll in relationship to the total Soviet population when he went on his mass extermination binge. Same for Hitler and his bunch. All in all, I think you will find that it really doesn't take all that much manpower to keep us under their collective thumb.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Althingi was established in 930 in Iceland by Viking-era settlers. The world's oldest legislative body is now Iceland's official parliament.

[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he US gov't does not operate that way. We can overthrow our gov't every two years for the house of reps. 1/3 of the senate every two years. The president every 4 years

[JayHMorrison]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he US gov't does not operate that way. We can overthrow our gov't every two years for the house of reps. 1/3 of the senate every two years. The president every 4 years

[JayHMorrison]

I think the strongest evidence of how strong our democracy is will be determined in November 2004. The most powerful man in the world (GWB) will likely be removed from power.

There will not be a revolt.
There will be no martial law.

We will have a lot of heated words and debate on TV, in newspapers and on the radio.

But none of the political opponents will be thrown in jail. (like Yukos CEO in Russia)
None of the opponents will be killed. (common in other countries)

It will simply be a vote and the decision will be accepted by everyone. We will live with that decision for at least until 2006. Then we can vote on Congress again.

In this country, there is no need for revolts and overthrowing a gov't. If you dislike the current gov't or it's policies, you can vote for someone else. If you dont see a candidate you like, run for office yourself.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship.

[Pops]

I guess I should restate my original post:

“The senators, congressmen, justices and administration aren’t the GOV, nor are their laws and policies; I am.”

I’m not looking for what they can give me, since they serve me and I give to them to provide roads, etc. I may not like everything my peers decide, but that is how we work.

I may not state many absolutes but this is one; I will vote on every Election Day – one way or another. I'm pretty pragmatic and flexible about most ideals, but I'm very confident that there are others who feel the same regarding this one.

When I’m dead then something else may happen – but I think it will only happen if my kids are gone as well.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') may not state many absolutes but this is one; I will vote on every Election Day – one way or another.

[Aaron]

http://peakoil.com/post7055.html#7055

[Fellow slave]

First of all voting every two or four years selecting from a group of people all who have as their fundamental belief the supremacy of government over individuals is hardly a choice. The Democrats and Republicans just keep piling law upon law. Government, as measured by money spent, has grown from maybe 5% 200 years ago up to nearly 50% now, so the free economy has gone from 95% to 50% of economic activity in 200 years. Laws are so pervasive that you probably break a dozen an month without even realizing it. Government is a magnet for those who believe in power and control, not for those who believe in freedom. I see elections just as contests to see which individuals or group of will fill the offices as your rulers. Democracy is a system of choosing rulers, and can coexist with either freedom or slavery, but at has been pointed out democracy usually degenerates into plunder thru the force of government. Freedom vs slavery is whether you own yourself and have a right to keep the fruits of your labor, and to chose your personal behavior, or whether someone or some organization owns you and determines how much of the fruits of your labor you keep and how much they take, and what personal behavior is appropriate. Think of the USA as one big plantation with a small group living in the plantation house, a small group or hired hands physically poping the whip over the slaves, and the great majority being slaves.

A good part of what government does is pass out privelege. The best priveleges go to those who fund the politicians and once these privelege laws go into effect they disrupt the normal free economy by transferring by the force of governemnt wealth out of the hands of the majority into the hands of those granted prievelge by these laws.

Then there are the vote buying laws that pass out to the gullible small benefits to keep them beholding to those in power. These are the type laws referred to by DDHTF.

Then there are the moralistic laws that come from our Puritan heritage; we must not have fun so drug, prostitution, gambling and all the other victimless things people do become the business of politicians and their employees. I have more than once had the thought that the politicians deep down know what crooks they are, so they compensate by trying to look super moral, hence their support of these type laws.

Anyway it will likely be a moot point within 15 years after peak oil. Those of you who have the survival wolf knocking at your door suddenly won't be sitting passively supporting a governemnt that has done nothing more than plunder its citizenry over at least the last 150 years. The only way that government survived was that the standard of living went up in spite of their actions. What chance will they have when the standard of living is plunging. Civil war/ revolution is inevitable early this centry in my view, and the USA as it is known today will not likely continue to exist.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')overnment, as measured by money spent, has grown from maybe 5% 200 years ago up to nearly 50% now, so the free economy has gone from 95% to 50% of economic activity in 200 years.

[Guest]

Keep in mind, we're just a baby of a country at 200 years old.

There have been a lot of other civilizations that lived far longer than we have.

I doubt this is "the end of the road".

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'K')eep in mind, we're just a baby of a country at 200 years old.