by Alcassin » Fri 23 Nov 2007, 12:13:52
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'T')his is a great thread. Are we seeing a convergence of the anti-corporate left with libertarianism? Why DMX's comments? I found his post confusing and difficult. Was it to convince the left to acknowledge 911 Truth?
It happened before during war with Vietnam. Rothbard wrote an article "Left and Right", you can easily find it. But things changed since and libertarians are still believing (many of them, including Ron Paul) that change may happen within Republican Party. They keep on dreaming, and libertarian party is not going to anywhere because of the undemocratic construction of electoral process.
Libertarians themselves find their position on 'right side' and this is quite funny, in "Left and Right" you'll find answers why. Libertatrians always seem to me to be in a different situation, they find themselves calling everything opposing 'socialist' and this happens to be mainstream in the US. Because they find socialism on left, they must be on the far right. But on the far right you'll find also neoconservatives and their ideological brothers proto-fascists. And this is what I see from the coverage of the Republican Party debates.
So libertarians pushed themselves into the position of conservatives who also don't like social spending (and Naomi Klein, Chomsky and many others on the left points that there is great antisocial propaganda going), but unlike conservatives libertarians believe in non-violence, many of them in democracy and their long-term goal is somehow funny - as Adam Smith pointed out that equal distribution happens in totally free market - egalitarian society. Quite leftist in my opinion...
Republican Party happened to be a progressive party which protected freedoms, and endorsed different kind of philosophy like separation of church and the state (altar from sword). And now Republican Party shifted into a big business party with hard-core conservative values.
In continental Europe conservatism was always seen as reactionary, right side of political spectrum was always enforcing violent laws, promoted monarchy, has never problems to deal with problems by shooting to protestors (Europe had thousands of tienanmens throughout two centuries), and clearly right always loved beurocracy of Church. And left was the side of people who wanted aquire more freedom, mainly aniestablishent movements were always seen as leftism - today in mainstream thinking - ecologists, feminists, LGBT, anti-racists are all defined as leftists, not as social or civil movements. It's Cold War Paranoia of defining social phenomenons, but this kind of ignorance always is helpful to reject their fight because they're 'leftist'. In my opinion this is victory of mccartism.
Great French Revolution destroyed the old feudal world. Libertarians were always in favor of industralism, they promoted changes inside societies, sometimes in revolutionary way (like it happened in America), French Revolution didn't abolish private property, and also cared about the freedom of individual, they destroyed the oppresive machine of church. Frenchmen destroyed catholic church, Americans are descendants of those who were persecuted by the catholic church. So the separation was total, in America because of the absence of Catholic Church in the state it was much easier. And United States had Thomas Jefferson, if this guy was born today he would be also rejected as 'leftist'. Especially - United States hadn't been a feudal monarchy.
Because of history you don't see any major libertarian party in Europe, and libertarianism is mainly unknown, and that's why the number of lefitsts/marxists is low in the US, and don't tell me that Democrats are 'leftists' because simply - they are not. Last time european leftism was seen in the US, was during Eugene Debbs - and he like many libertarians - opposed the engagement in European War from the same point.
There is bad understanding, very bad, built on many stereotypes of politics and especially of "right" and "left".
This misunderstanding is main factor of misunderstanding all of debates between continental Europeans and Americans because we don't learn history of other countries with some rational explanation. Europeans are eurocentrists, Americans also don't learn. Europe made so many mistakes and the number is outstanding, we fucked up the world, and sincerely I don't know why United States are making the same mistakes. To paraphrase one guy with beard, first it was traged, now it's a farce.