[Ibon]

Here is a link to a Radio Lab interview entitled Killing babies, saving the planet. It discusses the moral dilemma that arises when different parts of our brain look at moral issues. There is a hunter gatherer intuitive emotional part of the brain in conflict with a more rational part of the brain.

The moral issues we have often discussed here on po.com around overshoot and how to cope are addressed here. Mos, Ludi, Energy Unlimited,Montequest and many others here will find this discussion interesting and familiar. I sure did

Josha green is a Harvard researcher interviewed who studies moral judgement and decision making and argues in the interview that cultural evolution can lead us to exercise better the rational part of our brain and not rely solely on the intuitive emotional hunter gatherer moral reflex that alone does not solve the complex moral issues around overshoot, global warming etc.

http://www.radiolab.org/blogs/radiolab- ... the-world/

Enjoy the podcast!

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', ' ')not rely solely on the intuitive emotional hunter gatherer moral reflex that alone does not solve the more complex issues around overshoot, global warming etc.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', ' ')not rely solely on the intuitive emotional hunter gatherer moral reflex that alone does not solve the more complex issues around overshoot, global warming etc.

[Narz]

That was a great podcast. I always find experiments like that fascinating. Kind of scary though, if people make bad choices just from having to memorize a few extra digits, imagine how more lower functioning pretty much everyone is than they have to be. Memorizing 7-digits is pretty damn mild compared to most of the stressors most people face in everyday life.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Like learning to play a guitar the rational brain does have the potential to learn and then moderate when our evolved hunter gatherer moral responses do not serve our best interests.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Like learning to play a guitar the rational brain does have the potential to learn and then moderate when our evolved hunter gatherer moral responses do not serve our best interests.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')My point is there is nothing less "rational" about how hunter-gatherers think or live than how civilized people think or live.

Conversely there is nothing more "rational" about how civilized people think and live than how hunter-gatherers think and live.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f modern human culture survives hundreds of generations than it is not unreasonable to assume this will also start acting on our evolution. That our cultural memes will eventually create a feedback loop to genetic advantages that would integrate living within complex societies.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')If there is no natural selection pressure in modern human culture, how can we evolve to better integrate living within complex societies?

[Ludi]

Thanks for clarifying, Ibon, I think I was really misunderstanding what you were saying - thought you were saying civilized people are more rational than hunter-gatherers. Personally I think hunter-gatherers are better at observing their environment than civilized people, as they are able to adjust their behavior to observed changes whereas civilized people seem to stick to what they're used to doing even if it's counter-productive, in many cases. But we do know that human societies are capable of change, and that individual humans are capable of change. It might be civilizations aren't capable of change - or rather, the only way to change a civilization might be to change it into something else. There are other choices besides just "civilization" or "hunter-gatherer" so, it seems to me, if we find civilization unable to change it is possible there's something it might change into, or there may be several options for various groups of people leaving civilization. I'm not personally of the opinion "we all have to be hunter-gatherers," never have been. It may be hunting and gathering is the most stable and hence the most adaptive of the options, but we don't really know and we certainly can't know ahead of time. We can only know which have been the successful and stable strategies in the past and which haven't been.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t seems like there is no natural selection pressure in modern human cultures but how do we know for sure? Our modern ethics and morals have an evolutionary component that stemmed from altruism that evolved from our ancestors societal structure. So we see here that natural selection functioned on the social structure of our species.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')As for your comments re overshoot, of course that will cause huge problems and a survival of the fittest scenario (if we are indeed in overshoot). But that has nothing to do with us evolving as a species to better integrate into a complex society.

[Ludi]

You can't second-guess evolution. We don't know what characteristics will be the most adaptive for future conditions.

We can make very good evaluations of our behavior as a culture, however, and see that many or even most of our behaviors are not beneficial in the short or the long term. Behavior can be changed.

We haven't "left nature behind" - if we had, we would not be worrying about such effects of nature as Global Warming.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'P')ersonally I think hunter-gatherers are better at observing their environment than civilized people, as they are able to adjust their behavior to observed changes

[Vogelzang]

Stop sending money to Africa. Over a trillion dollars was spent on subSaharan Africa and its poorer now then when it was in the 1950's. I've heard this a couple of times on TV recently. This obviously implies the northern African Arab races are superior.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')We see that richer countries' populations have far lower birth rates than poorer countries, and the same is reflected within a country.

[efarmer]

Thanks for another quality opine Vogelzang. Some folks jump to conclusions, others pole vault out of windows and swan dive down at them from the stimulus of a television set. I will stay tuned for further insight with regard to this topic.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'P')ersonally I think hunter-gatherers are better at observing their environment than civilized people, as they are able to adjust their behavior to observed changes

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'J')ared Diamond ... This is the principal theory behind his Pulitzer award winner "Guns, Germs and Steel." ...The point is that Western culture is predominant not because it so much better but because of happenstance including weather patterns, migration routes and the like.

My extrapolation is that once Western Culture got a certain critical mass it more or less took over because it was so much better at exploiting the natural resources. Which, ironically, may well be, likely will be, the cause of it's ultimate collapse.

It is a wonderful book, very well written and enlightening. I recommend it to everyone.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Vogelzang', 'S')top sending money to Africa. Over a trillion dollars was spent on subSaharan Africa and its poorer now then when it was in the 1950's. I've heard this a couple of times on TV recently. This obviously implies the northern African Arab races are superior.