[Aaron]

Wiki

ABC News Repeats Experiment

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')r. Jerry Burger, Santa Clara University: "Virtually everyone says, 'Well, I wouldn't press those buttons.' In fact, most of us predict that nobody would press those buttons."

But time and time again people pressed the buttons. In fact, 70-percent pressed the highest, most dangerous button possible.

[Aaron]

It just occurred to me that there is only one group I would knowingly hurt, & that's the 70% of you who would do evil on others.

So, apparently, I'm potentially willing to do violence on at least 70% of you.

Funny ol' world ain't it?

[NEOPO]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'I')t just occurred to me that there is only one group I would knowingly hurt, & that's the 70% of you who would do evil on others.

So, apparently, I'm potentially willing to do violence on at least 70% of you.

Funny ol' world ain't it?

[gg3]

VERY interesting! Replication of the Milgram experiment.

Did they do this in a manner that can be published in peer-reviewed journals?

One possible methodological flaw: 150 volts can be painful but not hazardous if it's applied across a non-risk area such as the forearm muscles. When you get to 200 volts on the other hand, that is getting into the very painful and potentially dangerous category (localized burns, damage to muscle tissue, etc). However for most non-geeks out there, 150 volts sounds plenty scary enough.

As for me & mine, we routinely believe we wouldn't press the button, but there's reason to believe that is an accurate assessment rather than rationalization.

"Uncommon sense of personal responsibility." Exactly. For myself and most of my friends, we feel that we are morally responsible for our decisions and actions, we feel obligated to act on our convictions, and we know from direct experience (e.g. the dot-com crash) that cooperation among peers is the most effective strategy to compete with opponents and survive. We also recognize the value of compassion and practice accordingly, and many of us are natural empaths (though not to a degree that would prevent us defending ourselves).

So here is a path forward:

Teach kids, starting in elementary school (better yet starting with their parents!) to have that type of strong sense of personal responsibility. This is a value that will be appreciated across the political spectrum, and there is no legitimate basis for opposing it. But the effect of this will include raising a generation that refuses to torture or allow torture (etc.) to be committed in their names.

Now here's something else that might be intreresting to try:

One of the findings that came out of the Griffiths study last year (pharmacological induction of mystical experience under controlled conditions, with persisting positive changes in behavior thereafter). One of the core components of mystical experience is an increase in the sense of universal love and compassion. This, it would seem, would act against the tendency to obey an order to harm another person.

So then, a 4-group research design to determine whether individuals who have been through induced mystical experiences are less likely than others to harm another person. I can see there would be some methodological complications here, but none the less it would be interesting. The point being that, if an individual has not been brought up with the heightened sense of personal responsibility, perhaps an induced mystical experience could produce a similar outcome.

And for those who are concerned that this may lead to an increase in pacifism to a degree that disrupts the necessary and delicate societal balance between pacifism and willingness to engage in military defense, this factor could probably be tested by doing the experiment with volunteers who are enlisted soldiers. My prediction is that the warrior spirit and the unwillingness to torture are perfectly compatible, as we have seen with regard to soldiers who have blown the whistle on prisoner abuse in the present war.

The key question is how to deal with the opposite types, e.g. those who would duck their own obligation to serve when called, but who would send others into harm's way and would order them to commit abuses of prisoners and civilians. Beyond stopping the moral transgression of going along with illegal or immoral orders, we have to focus attention on the issue of stopping those who would give illegal or immoral orders in the first place.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')id they do this in a manner that can be published in peer-reviewed journals?

[frankthetank]

Reminds of the Chemical Brothers song "Push the button"

"My finger is on the button" ...

[gg3]

Aaron, thanks for posting that. Email sent to Dr. B.

I'll try to figure out if local broadcast TV carries 20/20 and when & which network & channel it's on.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'A')pparently consistent with the original Milgram conclusions... 3/4 of you folks are more than willing to do evil upon one another.

Very nice... we're doomed.

[Aaron]

I agree... I was a bit shocked.

Actually my first thought was the instant I realized I was administering pain to a person, I wouldn't say a word.

I'd stand up, walk over to the researcher & punch him in the face.

Unless of course these folks knew what was up coming in...

[dinopello]

In my opinion the study shows more about how humans respond to authority than how sadistic people are. 70% will do whatever you tell them, 30% won't. Mabe the 30% would zap the guy if they had their own motives for doing so. Maybe the 70% wouldn't do it unless told to. Still, doesn't paint a pretty picture, but hey that's nature.

[holmes]

The great slaughter of humanity and nature is a comin!

[Benzin]

It is a lot easier getting people to perform these actions when they don't even see the "victim." Out of site, out of mind so to speak. Put them in the same room staring face to face while administering "shocks" and see what happens.

However, I have no doubt some people under social pressure and motivation would still submit.

[Stratovarius]

I learned about this a while back. The point of the experiment was not to show how sadistic people are. The whole point of it is to show how far people are willing to go to respond to authority.

There was a variation of the experiment where the victims of the experiment pushed a button which caused a signal to be sent to an actor who saw the signal then administered the shocks. The people being experimented on never directly shocked the people.

The number of people who proceeded all the way to something like 300 volts shot up.

Let's apply this to Nazi Germany. Hitler tells someone to do this, then that person does this, then that person does this, then that person does this and it takes a while before someone actually dies.

Whenever there is a break in command until the intended action is actually carried out, humans are more capable of doing horrendous things.

Even Eichmann was sickened when he saw the camps. All he had to do to committ mass murder was to shuffle papers and give orders when he was told to by authority and then those orders where than carried out by people who gave even more orders.

The shocking part of the experiment is that many people say, "Fuck that, I would just knock the fucking lights out of an experimenter who told me to do something like that." But you know what? Most people will carry out the experiment even to the very end, few people get up before even starting.

(Btw, I wasn't defending Nazis so please don't flame me.)

[NEOPO]

Fuckin Nazi!!

[Benzin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Stratovarius', 'I') learned about this a while back. The point of the experiment was not to show how sadistic people are. The whole point of it is to show how far people are willing to go to respond to authority.

[frankthetank]

"Out of sight, out of mind" brings the thought of diamonds to my head, considering the bloodshed/slave conditons behind a lot of them. No wonder i have never bought a diamond in my life.

Not sure what i would do. I don't really like bosses.

[coyote]

I watched a vid of the original experiment in some class or another... the most surreal part was when the screams stopped (feigning death or unconsciousness), and even then some of the subjects continued to obey.

This is all about fearing authority, wanting to please and living on autopilot. If you want to know whether you'd obey or not, simply ask yourself: have you lived life more or less according to your own rules, or did you do as you were told?

[Harlequin]

Yeah I learned about this in psychology, I thought everyone knew of Milgram though?
This test is simply a way of saying, "if someone who has authority ordewrs people to do soemthing, most peoplke will".

A variety of variances were added, such as if the participants could see their 'victim' or if there was no authjority figure, IIRC in both cases the amount of people who went to a 'lethal' dose was below 40%.
Also other tests were conducted with more or less people and if the authorty figure left.
Basically the authority has to be constant for 70% of people to go through with it, the problem is that 35-40% of people who go through with it anyway. They're the ones to watch out for.

[max_power29]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'A')pparently consistent with the original Milgram conclusions... 3/4 of you folks are more than willing to do evil upon one another.

Very nice... we're doomed.

[shakespear1]

The key is distance between the victim and the perpetrator of the act.

Some years ago I heard an interview on Pacifica Radio of Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. Then I read his book "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society".

Some things I knew intuitively but his analysis clarified a lot of things. I highly recommend it.

Grossman

PS: However recently I read an interview of his where he goes into the analogy of the why we need to kill and I completely was in disagreement with him. He was basically arguing that we need some in our society who are the sheepdogs. The problem that I see is that the sheepdogs without strong control start to make their own rules as to when they are to act. Thus he forgot to throw in that you also need a strong Shepard !!!!