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Forcing up fuel prices - a strategy for the future

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Forcing up fuel prices - a strategy for the future

Unread postby Denny » Wed 26 Dec 2007, 12:34:31

As much as the world has a problem with tight oil supplies, many of the producing nations have odd policies that serve to encourage over consumption at the expense of the rest of the world. In some places, fuel is wasted, you will see large, heavy vehicles being used for personal travel in the mid-East for instance. One sheik in the U.A.E. is even ordering a new Airbus 380 for personal use, and low fuel prices may encourage such irresponsibility. This blatant waste should not be allowed to continue.

To keep all at an even keel, would it not be a wise thing for the U.N. to set a floor price for retail pricing, such that all countries work in unison to encourage conservation?

I recall Iran increased their retail prices this past year, but they are still well below world averages. The peopel there were not happy wit the situation, who would be, but if everybody got the message that the higher prices would work to secure a more solid future, at least that may be palatable.

If U.N. action prevailed, it would take the political heat off the leaders of places like Saudi Arabia and Venezuela, as they cold all point out they are forced into it. Perhaps even the U.SA. and Canada should look at much higher taxation to get its prices more in line with world averages. This would serve to reduce consumption and help the carbon footprint that everybody is seeking to accomplish. Maybe the whole world should start with the minimum of pricing $4.50 per U.S. gallon and go up $0.75 per year, until they reach $7.00 or higher. If you think about the "invisible hand" of the market place, the only reason that some places have such low prices is government subsidies, which are clearly wrong in a free market world.

Such a pricing regime by the U.N. would not only promote conservation but it would also avoid some countries using their domestic fuel prices as an artificial trade incentive, which is contrary to free markets.

See this, from U.S.A. Today

WORLD GASOLINE PRICES
Gas prices on April 17 or 18. Data for EU countries were provided by the AA Motoring Trust. Prices are listed in U.S. dollars

United Kingdom $8.37
Netherlands $7.52
Norway $7.33
Belgium $6.95
Germany $6.72
Finland $6.57
France $6.50
Austria $5.40
Spain $5.14
Italy $4.80
Japan $4.16
United States $2.88
Russia $2.68
Mexico $2.38
China $2.19
Nigeria $1.92
Saudi Arabia $0.45
Venezuela $0.19
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Re: Forcing up fuel prices - a strategy for the future

Unread postby Twilight » Wed 26 Dec 2007, 12:55:38

It wouldn't fly. All people would hear is "UN price controls" and then it wouldn't matter what was said next. It's not their job anyway. And there would be a conflict of interest, as many governments need fuel subsidies as part of their strategy to hold power, and they are all part of the UN. It would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.
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Re: Forcing up fuel prices - a strategy for the future

Unread postby heroineworshipper » Wed 26 Dec 2007, 16:26:19

Would run out of food pretty fast. For oil to be expensive enough to switch over to the next best thing, it would no longer be profitable to grow food.
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Re: Forcing up fuel prices - a strategy for the future

Unread postby misterno » Wed 26 Dec 2007, 18:21:56

eventually, price of oil will skyrocket and it will enable food prices to skyrocket. This is inevitable. But what OP says is that let's do it early enough do that we can face the consequences early. Unfortunately, george bush is doing the opposite.
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Re: Forcing up fuel prices - a strategy for the future

Unread postby Pixie » Wed 26 Dec 2007, 18:27:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'T')o keep all at an even keel, would it not be a wise thing for the U.N. to set a floor price for retail pricing, such that all countries work in unison to encourage conservation?


The UN has no such power anyway. The UN can't tell a country what to do within its own borders. They can use political pressure, but how are they going to do that against every oil producing nation on the planet?
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Re: Forcing up fuel prices - a strategy for the future

Unread postby ohanian » Wed 26 Dec 2007, 21:16:34

UN cannot but OPEC can!

OPEC will say "all countries must sell gasoline at US$8 per gallon"

If even a single country refuses to do so then OPEC will stop selling even a single drop of oil.

Problem solved!
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Re: Forcing up fuel prices - a strategy for the future

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 26 Dec 2007, 21:56:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ohanian', 'U')N cannot but OPEC can!

OPEC will say "all countries must sell gasoline at US$8 per gallon"

If even a single country refuses to do so then OPEC will stop selling even a single drop of oil.

Problem solved!


And the day after that the USA/Canada/Others pass a tax rebate to refund the difference back to the consumers to keep economic growth going. Or all the OPEC capital cities are threatened with annihilation, whichever method the pol's think will work best.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Forcing up fuel prices - a strategy for the future

Unread postby Denny » Thu 27 Dec 2007, 00:34:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ohanian', 'U')N cannot but OPEC can!

OPEC will say "all countries must sell gasoline at US$8 per gallon"

If even a single country refuses to do so then OPEC will stop selling even a single drop of oil.

Problem solved!


And the day after that the USA/Canada/Others pass a tax rebate to refund the difference back to the consumers to keep economic growth going. Or all the OPEC capital cities are threatened with annihilation, whichever method the pol's think will work best.


Actually, refunding tax levies raised would not be counterproductive for fuel conservation, unless these were refunded on the basis of fuel consumed.

Let us say, the U.S. taxed fuel at $1 a gallon and used the new found money to offset sustainable energy developments, such as wind power, etc. That could work and just advance America's speed along the highway to a sustainable future. But, yes there would be much push back form al kinds of Americans, nobody likes to be told what to do by an alien force, even the United Nations.
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Re: Forcing up fuel prices - a strategy for the future

Unread postby MrBill » Thu 27 Dec 2007, 06:06:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ohanian', 'U')N cannot but OPEC can!

OPEC will say "all countries must sell gasoline at US$8 per gallon"

If even a single country refuses to do so then OPEC will stop selling even a single drop of oil.

Problem solved!


And the day after that the USA/Canada/Others pass a tax rebate to refund the difference back to the consumers to keep economic growth going. Or all the OPEC capital cities are threatened with annihilation, whichever method the pol's think will work best.


Actually, refunding tax levies raised would not be counterproductive for fuel conservation, unless these were refunded on the basis of fuel consumed.

Let us say, the U.S. taxed fuel at $1 a gallon and used the new found money to offset sustainable energy developments, such as wind power, etc. That could work and just advance America's speed along the highway to a sustainable future. But, yes there would be much push back form al kinds of Americans, nobody likes to be told what to do by an alien force, even the United Nations.


Denny, I agree. But first of all your plan will never fly. Unfortunately, the UN is nothing more than a counter-productive talking shop where all arguments are framed in terms of national self-interest and the greater good to mankind is lost in the debate. A sad, but true commentary on our collectively inability to work towards global solutions.

However, I agree that a minimum price, along with tax rebates to the poor would result in conservation. It would be less economically distorting than subsidizing fuel consumption directly. Any good that is subsidized artificially raises demand above its equilibrium at any given price.

Unfortunately, when the World Bank, and especially the IMF, suggest governments phase-out wasteful subsidies they are almost always completely ignored, and then when these same countries run into balance of payment problems, to pay for energy imports for example, it is held up as an example of the failure of the market or even blamed on the IMF itself. Such bunk, but then the liberal left is intelletually lazy, so what do you expect?

heroineworshipper wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ould run out of food pretty fast. For oil to be expensive enough to switch over to the next best thing, it would no longer be profitable to grow food.


This is patently false. Again food prices are usually held down by over-production stemming from wasteful subsidies that distort production signals.

There is nothing more important than growing food, so more expensive energy should lead to more expensive food, and therefore the incentive to produce more at the expense of other non-essential production or consumption.

Again tax rebates and subidies should be given directly to the urban poor that do not benefit from higher food prices as opposed to subsidies to farmers to produce.

Image

But also reducing BIC Sydrome [sup]TM[/sup] - bureacracy, incompetence and corruptioin - is essential to making sure food gets to the people that need it the most. Again here the UN - and its members - has failed too many times and needs to reform itself urgently!
The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
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