[I_Like_Plants]

Half of the outlets in my apartment building don't work now. Phone line dodgy at best - only able to maintain DSL because of the error correction etc in the DSL standard, made to deal with adverse conditions. This is in one of the wealthiest towns in the US, yadda yadda.

I'm beginning to think the US is composed of two groups of people. Most of us, who don't realize we're in a death spiral, and a few of us, who are beginning to realize we're in a death spiral.

So, based on the little things we're all trained well to ignore, do you think the US economy and standard of living is in a death spiral? Little things like availability of hot water, or water at all, electricity, phone service, gasoline (this will become more pertinent this summer) and so on. How about the ability to buy milk that's not a day or so from going sour? How about the ability to leave anything at all outdoors without it being stolen? All those things we're trained to ignore or ascribe to coincidence, let's talk about them here.

[hubbertspeak7777777]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'H')alf of the outlets in my apartment building don't work now. Phone line dodgy at best - only able to maintain DSL because of the error correction etc in the DSL standard, made to deal with adverse conditions. This is in one of the wealthiest towns in the US, yadda yadda.

I'm beginning to think the US is composed of two groups of people. Most of us, who don't realize we're in a death spiral, and a few of us, who are beginning to realize we're in a death spiral.

So, based on the little things we're all trained well to ignore, do you think the US economy and standard of living is in a death spiral? Little things like availability of hot water, or water at all, electricity, phone service, gasoline (this will become more pertinent this summer) and so on. How about the ability to buy milk that's not a day or so from going sour? How about the ability to leave anything at all outdoors without it being stolen? All those things we're trained to ignore or ascribe to coincidence, let's talk about them here.

[perdition79]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hubbertspeak7777777', 'T')he years will get progressively worse. 2008 will be worse than this year and I don't even want to think about 2009 or beyond. I think it'll be a fast collapse. I predict that within ten years, there will be no more civilization.

We will face a new world. We all have our "Mad Max" fantasies, but let's face it, most of us are creme-puffs, we won't be able to survive post-crash. Can you imagine a world were you actually consider a 5-year old can of dog food a treat? A world where you can't get a doctor to fix your broken leg? I'd rather take my chances with the afterlife (or lack thereof) than live in a shit-hole like that.

[hubbertspeak7777777]

Yeah, it's funny to hear people say, "I don't car if gas gets up to $4/gallon, I'll just drive less" , but they fail to realize that an increase in the price of gas is an increase in the price of anything that is shipped including food, walmart crap, etc. They also fail to realize how it will fuck up the economy and they will likely get laid off from their job.

The big question is, how high can the price of gas go before civilization is totally fucked? I'd say that anything over $7/gallon would kill the economy.

[I_Like_Plants]

nice (?) to see so many kindred thoughts.

all it takes to kill the economy is for people to stop buying excess crap. Just. Stop.

[seldom_seen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'L')ike the turds in a the toilet bowl our tired old world is spinning around and around and wearing out.

[Newsseeker]

Donald Trump will save us when he runs for President in 2012. Don't worry.

[I_Like_Plants]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hubbertspeak7777777', 'C')an you imagine a world were you actually consider a 5-year old can of dog food a treat? A world where you can't get a doctor to fix your broken leg? I'd rather take my chances with the afterlife (or lack thereof) than live in a shit-hole like that.

[Ludi]

I used to like to snack on Milk Bones as a child....

[Tyler_JC]

Well, the social pyramid is starting to separate out.

The elite are getting richer and more entrenched.

The professionals are ensuring that only their children and the children of the elite can get into the best colleges and thus become professionals themselves.

The middle class is shrinking and has essentially stopped accepting new members. Many of the middle class jobs are disappearing, sinking those families into the large and growing working class.

The working class is losing ground everywhere, everyday. And with little access to higher education except for the exceptionally talented, they are staying put or falling into the last category.

The immobile poor. They are trapped in urban ghettos, rural poverty, trailer parks, etc. They don't have health insurance. The don't have checking accounts. They don't even come close to owning their own homes. They rarely have steady jobs. And with Peak Oil...they never will.

But none of this is news to anyone.

[Wednesday]

I'll admit that I am a product of the suburbs. I'm soft, spoiled, pampered and I like fine pretty things.

However, I have done a lot of soul searching on what it would take to keep me relatively comfortable and I have come up with the following list.

1) Clean water -doesn't have to be hot, I can take my bath cowboy style with a tea kettle. Has to be clean, lucky for me I live under a glacier on the edge of a 90 mile long lake, with a very nice hydro dam. The water here is the major reason we are staying.

2) Full belly -currently I turn my nose up at many of the perfectly fine game meats that my husband provides with his hunting hobby. I have a freezer full of bear meat that I will not deign to eat. I promise I won't be such a princess when I am hungry.
I force myself to sacrifice my manicure to the garden all the time now, and I am really proud of my progress there. I always grew stuff on my urban patio, but never worried about cost/yield ratio. Now I try to get the most beans for my buck. I want to put in some grape vines when we get the new place and try my hand at winemaking, I suspect I would be good at it.
I am currently trying to get over my phobia about the pressure cooker I want to use for canning. That thing scares the begeezus out of me.
I bought my partner shares into the local co-op and try to do at least 50% of my shopping there, even tho its more expensive. Right now they sell high end yuppie/hippie cosmetics and tofu, soon I expect that is where we will gather to exchange the vegetables from our yards. When Safeway decides that my town is too small to be profitable, the co-op will be the only game in town.

3) A warm place to sleep- a good night's rest will help one cope with almost any stress. My mortgage has little over a year left on it, I plan to celebrate with a mortgage burning party.

4) Boots- I have started collecting work boots for myself and my husband. Mine never seem to wear out but his only last about 6 months. I take his old boots, clean them, put them back in the box and store them. Someday he may wonder why he ever thought they were worn out.

5) Community- I am very fortunate to live in a small town in Canada away from any major population areas. I don't expect a lot of civil unrest or government interference here, what I do expect is crushing poverty. I have never experienced the kind of poverty I expect this area to see, it will be the biggest challenge of my life. I still prefer it to getting shot in an urban panic.

6) Resiliency- I am simply going to have to learn to bounce back from adversity and deal with the unexpected if I'm going to have any kind of a satisfying life at all. I know that this is completely up to me. In fact, it might just be the only thing I really have any control over. If that means I eat dog food, well tough luck to the dog. I will let him lick the can.

[Denny]

Wednesday, your husband is a lucky guy to have you. But, reading between the lines, it seems like he is a self reliant sort too, so it looks like you two were meant for each other.

[I_Like_Plants]

The working class aren't getting into college no matter how talented. A huge gap has opened between "middle class" and working class, where there used to be a smooth continuum.

Today I asked in a donut shop in Los Altos (home of all the predatory rich fuckers) if biz is slower, they said No not really, it's OK, but it IS slower at Andronico's, the upscale supermarket next door.

[Baldwin]

Wednesday, don't turn your nose up at bear and deer. My grandfather did for a time...then he tried it and LOVED it....so much so that he has always tried to get it whenever possible. When you taste real meat of an animal feeding on a natural diet for its whole life, you'll realize how crappy that hormone-ridden, sterilized, pathetic excuse for meat in the supermarket is.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he elite are getting richer and more entrenched.

The professionals are ensuring that only their children and the children of the elite can get into the best colleges and thus become professionals themselves.

The middle class is shrinking and has essentially stopped accepting new members. Many of the middle class jobs are disappearing, sinking those families into the large and growing working class.

The working class is losing ground everywhere, everyday. And with little access to higher education except for the exceptionally talented, they are staying put or falling into the last category.

The immobile poor. They are trapped in urban ghettos, rural poverty, trailer parks, etc. They don't have health insurance. The don't have checking accounts. They don't even come close to owning their own homes. They rarely have steady jobs. And with Peak Oil...they never will.

[128shot]

I'll say it again and again


Unless you completely suck ass and aren't willing to lie, you can make it up the ladder that is life.

[I_Like_Plants]

Mr Bush how nice to see you here......

[Jack]

It's definitely in a death spiral.

I've been stockpiling ammo lately - notice that the small, independent gun stores have poor supplies. Large chains are better - but not much. Online stores seem to have supply issues.

The restaurants I go to have less business - notably so. These range from low end (working class poor) to high end (top 1%).

Traffic (this in San Antonio, Texas) is starting to go down. I am beginning to see more cars with multiple people.

Crime is up. Car thefts are up. Robberies are up.

High-end neighborhoods (houses in 7 figures) are experiencing reduced sales. Low end neighborhoods (under 100,000) are seeing similar results.

And a couple of very smart, very well educated people who used to raise an eyebrow and smile when I talked about P.O are starting to take a stronger interest in the subject.

Trouble is, we haven't seen anything yet. Gas at $4? Bah!

When I see gas at $10 (just a little above European prices), food double what it is now, and official unemployment at 8% and rising, then let's start talking about death spirals.

I don't think we'll see that in 2007. In 2009...quite possibly.

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he working class aren't getting into college no matter how talented.

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')nless you completely suck ass and aren't willing to lie, you can make it up the ladder that is life.