This essay was written in 1973 and covers Odum's System's Theory. VERY interesting. Here's the introduction:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s long-predicted energy shortages appear, as questions about the interaction of energy and environment are raised in legislatures and parliaments, and as energy-related inflation dominates public concern, many are beginning to see that there is a unity of the single system of energy, ecology, and economics. The world's leadership, however, is mainly advised by specialists who study only a part of the system at a time.
Instead of a single system's understanding, we have adversary arguments dangerous to the welfare of nations and the role of man as the earth's information bearer and programmatic custodian. Many economic models ignore the changing force of energy, regarding effects of energy sources as an external constant; ecoactivists cause governments to waste energy in unnecessary technology; and the false gods of growth and medical ethics make famine, disease, and catalytic collapse more and more likely for much of the world. Some energy specialists consider the environment as an antagonist instead of a major energy ally in supporting the biosphere.
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Howard Odum - Energy, Ecology, & Economics
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deconstructionist - Coal
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Re: Howard Odum - Energy, Ecology, & Economics
by holmes » Mon 12 Sep 2005, 15:54:53
excellent paper. Eugene Odum is Howards younger brother. He has the best basic ecology book on the planet.
I have learned much of my ecological knowledge (it is very rusty now) from Howard and Eugen Odum. Howard in my opinion is the pioneer of modern ecology and energy dynamics.
I have studied under Dr. Charlie Hall who also is an Odum intellect.
Hall spoke at the aspo's in lisbon 2005.
here are some nice sites with some good reads. check out the having a baby in america paper.
http://www.esf.edu/efb/hall/pdfs/Hall_e ... n_envi.pdf
http://www.mil-media.com/pdf/JLASPO2005Summary.pdf
http://www.esf.edu/efb/hall/
I have learned much of my ecological knowledge (it is very rusty now) from Howard and Eugen Odum. Howard in my opinion is the pioneer of modern ecology and energy dynamics.
I have studied under Dr. Charlie Hall who also is an Odum intellect.
Hall spoke at the aspo's in lisbon 2005.
here are some nice sites with some good reads. check out the having a baby in america paper.
http://www.esf.edu/efb/hall/pdfs/Hall_e ... n_envi.pdf
http://www.mil-media.com/pdf/JLASPO2005Summary.pdf
http://www.esf.edu/efb/hall/
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Re: Howard Odum - Energy, Ecology, & Economics
by holmes » Mon 12 Sep 2005, 15:57:51
This is a must read for breeders.
http://www.esf.edu/efb/hall/pdfs/Hall_e ... n_envi.pdf
just had to post it again.
http://www.esf.edu/efb/hall/pdfs/Hall_e ... n_envi.pdf
just had to post it again.
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Re: Howard Odum - Energy, Ecology, & Economics
by backstop » Mon 12 Sep 2005, 17:10:10
Deconstructionist -
Those are wonderful statements !
What about getting them onto posters for universities' display ? Would like to help on that if its a goer ?
I think maybe the dynamics of "Coppice Woodland for Methanol" may reflect those principles quite clearly.
I wonder what are your thoughts on this option as an application of Odum's Principles ?
- I'm assuming maybe you've seen other posts on getting road-fuel methanol from the nurture and harvesting of Coppice Woodland. -
If not, and you're interested, I'd be glad to post a few links to them.
regards,
backstop
Those are wonderful statements !
What about getting them onto posters for universities' display ? Would like to help on that if its a goer ?
I think maybe the dynamics of "Coppice Woodland for Methanol" may reflect those principles quite clearly.
I wonder what are your thoughts on this option as an application of Odum's Principles ?
- I'm assuming maybe you've seen other posts on getting road-fuel methanol from the nurture and harvesting of Coppice Woodland. -
If not, and you're interested, I'd be glad to post a few links to them.
regards,
backstop
"The best of conservation . . . is written not with a pen but with an axe."
(from "A Sand County Almanac" by Aldo Leopold, 1948.
(from "A Sand County Almanac" by Aldo Leopold, 1948.
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Re: Howard Odum - Energy, Ecology, & Economics
by MonteQuest » Mon 12 Sep 2005, 22:30:08
I posted a thread some time back with a link to Odum.
Energy, Economics and Entropy
http://www.peakoil.com/post22629.html#22629
Energy, Economics and Entropy
http://www.peakoil.com/post22629.html#22629
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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MonteQuest - Expert
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Re: Howard Odum - Energy, Ecology, & Economics
by EnergySpin » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 09:50:02
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deconstructionist', '
') and the false gods of growth and medical ethics make famine, disease, and catalytic collapse more and more likely for much of the world. Some energy specialists consider the environment as an antagonist instead of a major energy ally in supporting the biosphere.
') and the false gods of growth and medical ethics make famine, disease, and catalytic collapse more and more likely for much of the world. Some energy specialists consider the environment as an antagonist instead of a major energy ally in supporting the biosphere.
Two points about this essay (and I do not mean to start or participate in a flame war)
1) the medical ethics of 1973 are different from the medical ethics of 2005. The medical profession does recognise the issue of "futility" much better than in 2005. Go after lawyers and the legal system which make people not apply the ethical principles
2)If one completely follow's Odum's energy accounting scheme (i.e. emergy) then one may reach paradoxical conclusions.
There is one calculation somewhere in Environmental Accounting that calcs the energy return rate of wind mills to be less than 1. The problem is that such wind mills were instrumental in keeping Netherlands above the water, which has resulted in net energy gains i.e. in agriculture or tulips!!
The energy accounting scheme is well adapted for energy management in ecosystems , but I find it hardly suitable for artificial systems.
Two technical comments ... that's all.
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
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EnergySpin - Intermediate Crude
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Re: Howard Odum - Energy, Ecology, & Economics
by bart » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 10:53:34
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'I')f one completely follow's Odum's energy accounting scheme (i.e. emergy) then one may reach paradoxical conclusions.
There is one calculation somewhere in Environmental Accounting that calcs the energy return rate of wind mills to be less than 1. The problem is that such wind mills were instrumental in keeping Netherlands above the water, which has resulted in net energy gains i.e. in agriculture or tulips!!
The energy accounting scheme is well adapted for energy management in ecosystems , but I find it hardly suitable for artificial systems.
There is one calculation somewhere in Environmental Accounting that calcs the energy return rate of wind mills to be less than 1. The problem is that such wind mills were instrumental in keeping Netherlands above the water, which has resulted in net energy gains i.e. in agriculture or tulips!!
The energy accounting scheme is well adapted for energy management in ecosystems , but I find it hardly suitable for artificial systems.
I'm not sure what you mean by paradoxical conclusions, EnergySpin. I don't remember the windmill example, but if you are looking at the system of windmill+agriculture, then that is a different case than a windmill by itself and the figures would be different.
I think that Odum meant his emergy analysis to be suitable for artificial systems, and from what little I know about current thinking, most in the field think it theoretically would be suitable. The problem is that emergy seems to be awkward and time-consuming to calculate. Other methods are easier to calculate, but not as complete.
I think that emergy is best used to help understand a process, rather than to see whether it is practical. Decisions about a process are made on economic or social criteria, at least until Technocracy becomes the law of the land!
I've read the book that Odum wrote in the 70s, and a number of his essays and commentaries on his work. The man was a genius, in the mold of Buckminster Fuller. Lots of initriguing ideas, but definitely on the eccentric side. I remember in particular a chapter devoted to a new religion based on energy; I couldn't tell whether he was being facetious or serious.
His work deserves a revival.
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Re: Howard Odum - Energy, Ecology, & Economics
by EnergySpin » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 11:24:08
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'I')f one completely follow's Odum's energy accounting scheme (i.e. emergy) then one may reach paradoxical conclusions.
There is one calculation somewhere in Environmental Accounting that calcs the energy return rate of wind mills to be less than 1. The problem is that such wind mills were instrumental in keeping Netherlands above the water, which has resulted in net energy gains i.e. in agriculture or tulips!!
The energy accounting scheme is well adapted for energy management in ecosystems , but I find it hardly suitable for artificial systems.
There is one calculation somewhere in Environmental Accounting that calcs the energy return rate of wind mills to be less than 1. The problem is that such wind mills were instrumental in keeping Netherlands above the water, which has resulted in net energy gains i.e. in agriculture or tulips!!
The energy accounting scheme is well adapted for energy management in ecosystems , but I find it hardly suitable for artificial systems.
I'm not sure what you mean by paradoxical conclusions, EnergySpin. I don't remember the windmill example, but if you are looking at the system of windmill+agriculture, then that is a different case than a windmill by itself and the figures would be different.
I think that Odum meant his emergy analysis to be suitable for artificial systems, and from what little I know about current thinking, most in the field think it theoretically would be suitable. The problem is that emergy seems to be awkward and time-consuming to calculate. Other methods are easier to calculate, but not as complete.
I think that emergy is best used to help understand a process, rather than to see whether it is practical. Decisions about a process are made on economic or social criteria, at least until Technocracy becomes the law of the land!
I've read the book that Odum wrote in the 70s, and a number of his essays and commentaries on his work. The man was a genius, in the mold of Buckminster Fuller. Lots of initriguing ideas, but definitely on the eccentric side. I remember in particular a chapter devoted to a new religion based on energy; I couldn't tell whether he was being facetious or serious.
His work deserves a revival.
Hehe fellow technocratist, where have you been?
Altough I have more moderate views on the value of energy accounting compared to a few months ago, I would agree that energy should be explicitly factored in any financial system
I'm afraid I was not clear; the statement of the windmill did not refer to the boundary (my clumsy writing!), but indirectly to statements such as: if a process X has a negative (or under-unity EROIE) then we should burn the energy directly instead of investing it in the process.
Some of the conclusions about the energy value of information seem strange especially in the context of work on subsymbolic and natural systems computing etc.
I know that Odum meant his theory to be applicable to artificial systems, but the calculations of the energy value of artificial systems are always attached to humans and the ecosystem. This might have been a valid assumption in the 70s but one needs to keep in mind that recent work on self-assemblying materials will make such calcs irrelevant in the future.
But overall he was the first to use system's wide modelling and he was a man ahead of his time as you said.
We seem to agree with the usability of emergy; calculating it is tedious and error prone and one can always "lie" about the emboddied energy of various materials. For example alternative production methods will lead to different emergy contents for the same material, a fact that people conveniently forget (this is the source of the <1 EROEIs that people on the doom side parrot about solar for example).
Buckminster Fuller is an interesting case as well
Clarification: what do you mean by "most in the field"? Ecologists , physicists, system engineers or economists?
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
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EnergySpin - Intermediate Crude
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