[Onyered]

Another poster (who shall remain anonymous, well sort of) wrote:

“If I were in this situation, I would not hesitate to shoot. If I only have enough supplies to sustain myself and immediate family, then I would act using any means necessary to defend that. If beggars, regardless of who they are came for some supplies, I would point them out to the county road, and tell them to get the hell off of my land. If they refused, they would be forced off at gunpoint. If they continued trying to enter my property, I would kill them. I have no reservations about killing a person in order to defend myself, home, land, and immediate family. I would not care who I had to kill in order to do so. There is no room for compassion for others in a desperate survival situation, only Darwinism.”

I understand what this person is saying but I think it is easier said than done. If the Mutant Biker Gang comes roaring down your street armed to the teeth spreading mayhem then the choice is easy to make, but what if it a woman with 2 small children who are starving. All they want is to eat some of your apples. You plan on drying these apples for winter provisions. Your food supply is tight and you need all you can grow. You order them to leave but the mother says her children will die without something to eat and after all it’s just a few apples. What would you do?

[k_semler]

Considering 2-5 apples would not make that much difference in my net consumption, I would give them 5 apples, but turn them away after giving them their alloted ration of food. It would be just enough to ease their stomach, and the children could die feeling somewhat at peace. This small amount would impact me very minimally, if at all, and it would allow the children to have a couple minutes of pleasure before their inevitable death due to malnutrition.

[IronSheik]

Funny, this is much like the posting of IronSheik
"who will live, who will die?"

No matter, I will tell you.
You must harden your heart to such things.
There will be many homeless wandering the
landscape looking for the things they themselves
would not or could not provide.

Look in any major city now.
These types are already here.
There are many who lives already
depend on your generosity
and the government cheese.

Most will be easy to scare off.
There will be some that will not scare.
These will travel in packs of many and rule by fear.
On these types you must spend many bullets.
These infidels will be easy to eliminate.
Once this starts you will never sleep for fear of thier retribution.

Trouble will be when "cousin April" brings
her many babies to seek your protection.

This is when your heart must be hard.
This is when you will make many strong decisions.
Descisions that may well haunt you forever.

This is when you must be like IronSheik.
Stong and proud.
Do what must be done for the protection
of your many wives and camels.

I have many body-bags available.
I can let them go cheap!
Let me know.

[born2respawn]

What about the middle ground? Give them a couple of loaves of bread or whatever in return for helping you collect firewood or whatever.

[Leanan]

At first, there will be room for compassion. People will help the starving and the sick, especially if they are children.

But it won't last. There will be too many people begging. Like New Yorkers ignoring the subway panhandlers, those who have will become used to turning away those who have not. If they don't, they will be overwhelmed.

[Pops]

I think Born2 is right.

My rule would be never give anything away without compensation - if you want some apples, help me harvest my orchard and I'll feed your family and give you a place to sleep tonight.

[IronSheik]

IronSheik is suprised at how many wealthy people
post on this board.

Everyone seems to have much land and much weath

Pick fruit from my orchard.
Take bread from my bakery.
Spend night in my ample house.

All seem to be to be as rich as IronSheik.

Good for them.

[k_semler]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('IronSheik', 'I')ronSheik is suprised at how many wealthy people
post on this board.

Everyone seems to have much land and much weath

Pick fruit from my orchard.
Take bread from my bakery.
Spend night in my ample house.

All seem to be to be as rich as IronSheik.

Good for them.

[Onyered]

It is certainly easier if we can dress things up by saying establish a barter system let them pick apples and do work.
So I can go along with that, so the first 10 mothers and 2 babes in arms come along and they are busy picking apples. What about the next 10, 20 30….

There are no easy answers.

Sadly I think that Leanan is most likely right.

[born2respawn]

If you've had all your apples picked, grain harvested, and firewood collected there's not much you can do apart from send them to the next settlement with a message saying they're good workers.

[Pops]

You are right O, it ain't easy - but it would be lots easier on the orchard side of the fence.

[Bud Dwyer]

Ask them to stand on your porch for two days and two nights with no food water or encouragement. If they last; treat them as if they where your own self. Even when it comes to spiritually beating your ass to escape your greedy flesh-prison. Everything else will be easy after that. Even your own death if the greater-good needs it.

1 stfu
2 stfu
3 don't let it amuse you
4 don't let it amuse you
5 don't let it amuse you

[Cool Hand Linc]

If times do get hard. Cousin April with many babies comes begging. I will turn her away because my heart is compasionate and hard. I will feel compasion but desire to keep them who are close to me alive. She should see the way and begin helping now. Then I will take her in latter. If she does not help to prepare now. I will turn her away.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is when you must be like IronSheik.
Stong and proud.

[IronSheik]

Missinglinks,
You are wise like IronSheik.

Not like other infidels who claim
to barter with imaginary goods.

Missinglinks sees clearly and speaks true.

Yes,
IronSheik has many peaches,
but not on trees.
Trees are for figs and dates.
Peaches are for harem.

IronSheik has many words of wisdom.
He can let them go cheap!
Let me know

[The_Virginian]

IronShiek, Man you are one funny Son of a "Cus E'meq"

G-D forbid it should come to it, but unless you want to feed the world for a day, you will likely have to turn many away empty handed. (should the SHTF really ever happen).

I'm Surprised IronSheik did not talk about taking cousin Aprils young Daughter(s) for the harem...nothing like a cousin.

At the point of no return your common senses will provide the necessary "Will" to be hard.

[IronSheik]

Virginian,
Yes,
cousins are very good and much desired.
But only cousins of IronSheik.
Not other peoples cousins.

IronSheik has many extra tomatoes.
Can let them go cheap!
Let me know.

[Cool Hand Linc]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')issinglinks,
You are wise like IronSheik.

[RIPSmithianEconomics]

I plan in completely converting my life to an agarian existance (I could do it by next week, everything is in place) before things get bad. That is why I am so anxious to find out if oil has peaked as soon as possible after the crash. That is why I think the news section on Life After The Oil Crash is so important. It is my opinion that we have probably peaked this year, and we can look forward to a few years of plateau before we come across the cliff. Early on, as the price of food goes up, the farm I am going to will be able to name it's price (it is a great, all-round farm in a nearly totally isolated region, perfect for defense and with little dependance on fertilizers, as the crops are just for the family). I'm thinking German hyperinflation all over again.

Sorry to get this on to planning, but if you have never worked on a farm, then you are probably unprepared. I have been working at a local farm on weekends for 6 months now (we are shearing sheep right now and harvesting hay, so there's plenty of overtime) and I'm only just starting to get the hang of it. The amount of work that is required to keep a farm commerically viable, even with subsidies, is ridiculous. From getting the horses in the fields in the mornings (they can only eat photosynthezing grass for some reason) to tossing bales of hay (quite possibly the hardest thing I've ever done) in the evening, it is exhausting work. If you aren't used to manual labour, I suggest you start spending some time working on the nearest farm.

[Dustin]

We have been hearing differing plans of what so and so plans to do, where to build, what plants to grow, et cetera et cetera. My question for everyone is, what goods to people plan to have to barter?

I recognize that the economy is going to come crashing down and money is going to be worthless from hyper-inflation (similar to Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union), however I see still the value in having goods available to trade for other goods either too PITA to make or unavailable. I think it should be apart of anyone's or any community’s plan to have trade-ables ready for the future.

1. Silver and Gold. Money use to be based off these two precious metals for their inherit value. Examine the history of these two, thier exchange rates rise and fall with inflation. Since the dawn of time, one ounce of gold has always purchased around 400 loafs of bread, its value has remained constant through depressions, recessions, booms and war. While money will be worthless in about 20 years or so, these two will remain very very valuable trade items. For an individual, buying up once coins of silver will be very affordable and convenient. I would not buy only gold, because gold is so valuable, it will be like having a 1,000 dollar bill to buy tic-tacs. Silver is of much lower value, so it would be more convenient to trade on barter markets. As the amount being invested in metals grows, gold should be included but in smaller quantities.

2. Food. This is the obvious trade item, so I will not focus too much on this one.

3. Tobacco. Tobacco is very intensive to grow, can’t be eaten, and is destroyed in its use. However, I'm sure that there will still be addicts in the future unable to get their fixes. The value will surely skyrocket and be very easy to trade. Bonus, they come sealed and can stay good for a very very long time while not opened. Buy it up now and store it away from everyone, even if you are not a smoker.

4. Matches, how many people do you know, know how to use flint and steel? I doubt there will be many Zippos around in the future because they too run off hydrocarbons.

5. Hard Alcohols. Very portable, easily stored, doesn’t go bad too quickly. I’m sure there will be people distilling their own moonshine, but imagine what people would be willing to trade for the Real McCoy.

6. Tools. The people who got the richest in the 1850's in California and Nevada never looked for gold or silver, they were the ones who sold the shovels and pick-axes.

What else should be on people's barter list? We need to get a list going so everyone knows what to stock up on to trade.

[Pops]

If you had a source of pulpwood and could produce TP, you would be the master of the kingdom!

Seriously, any valuable skill is an asset that will provide dividends for a lifetime, imo. No amount of stocking up today will help when and if things get really bad years down the road, unless what you stock up on are quality tools required by your particular skill.