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This is Politics

Unread postby ennui2 » Sun 24 Jan 2016, 13:11:01

We'd like to think we make rational decisions on supporting candidates based on their policy positions, that we can talk things through in terms of how said policies support the public welfare. However, as people have moved to the poles, support for candidates has really more to do with fundamentalist cult-like worship than any sort of rational policy debate. And nothing symbolizes that more than Trump, and even he realizes it.

This is what it amounts to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p2BjhSEnNI
"If the oil price crosses above the Etp maximum oil price curve within the next month, I will leave the forum." --SumYunGai (9/21/2016)
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Re: This is Politics

Unread postby vox_mundi » Sun 24 Jan 2016, 13:57:01

Agreed.

From the BBC ... Donald Trump and the politics of paranoia

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') Trump is just the latest example of a tendency in American politics that goes back a very long way.

Fear.

The simple four-letter word that works if you want to get elected. Political professionals know that playing on people's fears - going negative - is the way to win.

Paranoia.

A somewhat fancier word that is used to describe excessive, irrational fear and distrust. It, too, works from time to time - in American politics, at least.

This current presidential season is one of those times. Donald Trump has surged to the front of the pack competing for the Republican Presidential nomination by giving voice to outsized fears many in America have - of illegal immigrants, of Islamic terrorists, of free trade agreements shipping American jobs to China.

Trump promises to make America Great Again - as if the US somehow was no longer the most powerful country in the world - by simple solutions: deporting all 11 million illegal immigrants, banning Muslims from entering the US, and forcing the Chinese government to back down through tough talk.

The phrase "paranoid style in American politics" was coined by the late historian Richard Hofstadter. He defined the Paranoid Style, "an old and recurrent phenomenon in our public life which has been frequently linked with movements of suspicious discontent."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.').. Writing off Donald Trump was the default setting of most pundits and political professionals in the first months of the campaign. It isn't any more. Trump understood more than they did that a significant chunk of American society is fearful. He plays to those fears - whether they are rational or not. He doesn't speak in what he calls "politically correct" terms.


Another Vox Populi that understood how to play to those fears ...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')img]http://memolition.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/131101-adolf-hitler-harvest-festival-1937-a.jpg[/img]


From CNN ... Trump: I could 'shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters'

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') Sioux Center, Iowa (CNN) Donald Trump boasted Saturday that support for his presidential campaign would not decline even if he shot someone in the middle of a crowded street.

"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters," Trump said at a campaign rally here.

(... maybe he'll ask his supporters to jump to their death to prove their loyalty)
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late.
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Re: This is Politics

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 24 Jan 2016, 18:25:48

I don't believe a word from Trump or Hillary. While I don't watch TV the impression I have arrived at is that they both want to WIN, at any cost, and they will do or say whatever it takes to do so. I suspect Bernie has more idology and will stick to a philosophy, a program.

I kind of break it down this way.
Trump...pragmatic outsider
Clinton...pragmatic insider
Sanders...idealistic outsider
Bloomberg...don't know. Could be interesting.
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Re: This is Politics

Unread postby fleance » Mon 25 Jan 2016, 06:33:27

It is the sad reality in politics today. Candidates are willing to do everything to win in the election. They make lots of promises and proposing sets of laws that looks for the welfare of the people and country. And, when they get elected we hardly see their promises and their propose laws. The painful reality during campaign is that candidates can appear as if they are only hope to bring back peace and prosperity of the country.
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Re: This is Politics

Unread postby Cog » Mon 25 Jan 2016, 06:58:10

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Re: This is Politics

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 25 Jan 2016, 13:15:42

A bit of an aside, I found this, which I'm still reading through:

Robert Reich -- Inside the Beltway -- book review
https://www.nytimes.com/books/97/04/27/reviews/970427.27thomast.html

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n that same light he views Donald Trump’s popularity as rooted not only in immigrant bashing but in what he believes is a misguided perception that Trump is standing up to the overwhelming economic force of Wall Street in a way that no one else could or would. In doing so, Trump represents to his supporters what Reich calls a “countervailing power” — a person or movement capable of challenging the dominant political structure.


Robert Reich's Hilarious Crusade
http://www.alternet.org/economy/robert-reichs-hilarious-crusade-save-capitalism-and-americas-middle-class-part-2
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Re: This is Politics

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 25 Jan 2016, 15:40:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('fleance', 'I')t is the sad reality in politics today. Candidates are willing to do everything to win in the election. They make lots of promises and proposing sets of laws that looks for the welfare of the people and country. And, when they get elected we hardly see their promises and their propose laws. The painful reality during campaign is that candidates can appear as if they are only hope to bring back peace and prosperity of the country.


A general thing that's going on in the UK, and Europe, and now the US -- is just that the usual centrist establishment isn't making the system work for most of the people anymore.

This is how the UK's Jeremy Corbyn did so well, in his election. For Americans reading this, Corbyn is like green party and far to the left of what we've got going on -- Bernie Sanders -- yet over here Sanders is called extreme left. But the dynamic is the same, whether it's Europe or UK or US, it's a failing center with the left and right wings getting more traction.

Everyone on this forum knows about what's going on in Europe, and growing right wing parties. Sometimes they're definitely all bad, sometimes maybe it's unclear. Like in Poland. Or even Orban in Hungary isn't a Hitler, but -- he's done some too dictatorish kinds of things, that we'd never want to see in the USA. (and that I would NEVER agree with, whatever country it is, on issues like press freedoms)

In the US, part our constitution and system and history is all about *preventing* dictators, and tyranny.

There's a chance that a strong president can work out though -- it could be like a Reagan, or FDR, or Teddy Roosevelt.

If we happen to get an unusually strong president, on the left or right, I think our system can handle it. The checks and balances kick in. The realities of our ironclad constitution, are in place. We are not Poland, a US president could not just pack the supreme court, nor nullify it.

If a President Trump went too far -- congress would impeach and remove him. Or Trump's own cabinet could -- a cabinet can actually vote to determine a president is no longer mentally fit. Back with Reagan, they had some initial discussions at one point as he began early symptoms of alzheimers. But then Reagan bounced back, and was a lot more alert, and those early discussions didn't go further than that.

So.. we aren't Russia, or Hungary or Poland. We've got a strong system in the US, designed to handle just about anything that comes down the block.

We aren't parliamentary, so there could never be a prime minister with a majority in parliament that could just change the constitution to whatever they want and do whatever they want.

Again, THE OVERALL THING going on -- in Europe, in the UK, in the US, is failure of the establishment and financial elite economy to make the system benefit the middle and working classes enough. I firmly believe this is the establishment's fault. In the US, if they don't want Trump, if they're scared of Bernie Sanders too, then just raise the frickin' minimum wage. And do a couple other things, that's all they gotta do, but they're just too greedy and want it all and won't bend for the people even one bit.

They should start doing some more pro jobs trade deals. They should stop just looking out for the interests of the super rich and elite and multinational corporations and billionaire oligarchs. This oligarchs crap -- it's the same stuff, from Russia to Ukraine to here too.

And I guess Donald Trump is an oligarch too. One difference though, is he comes from the real estate and construction industries. So that's real industry, that could employ people. Versus someone like Mitt Romney that came from the financial industry -- hedge funds.

About Donald Trump, and the concerns this thread is about -- if he goes too far, then I won't vote for him. I'm not happy with the establishment either, just as many Polish aren't with theirs, and Ukrainians aren't with theirs, and the French are mad at their establishment, and the Danes, and Swedes and Brits are all mad at their establishments to varying degrees.

But.. there is a point where anti establishment is actually worse than establishment. If Trump and the Republican Party got to that point, then I wouldn't vote for them.
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Re: This is Politics

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 25 Jan 2016, 16:25:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'H')owever, as people have moved to the poles, support for candidates has really more to do with fundamentalist cult-like worship than any sort of rational policy debate.


Do you lump Bernie Sanders in with that, too? Bernie has a TON of real policy positions. His tv ads are refreshing -- honestly the most truth-telling, fact-filled ads I've seen since Ross Perot (a very long time ago). Ross Perot was a tiny bit crazy (or seemed it), yet he was RIGHT.

Bernie's actually not even kooky. He's been in the Senate for a long time, he was in the house before that. He's been on the veterans committee all this time. He's worked with both sides of the aisle, he's written legislation and helped pass it.

You can't lump Bernie Sanders in with "extreme poles cult worship" -- that man has definite principles and facts and figures and even all the economists on his side. And he's been working on these issues and consistent on them, his whole life.

About Trump --

Trump is more pure populist, with less facts and figures than Sanders. But he's right on some things too. Like the corporate inversion issue. That one really is rational and logically correct, and wouldn't be a corporate giveaway. It's just about making it *possible* for corporations to repatriate their money back to the US and not have to keep it held offshore and invested offshore.

Trump also understands business issues very well, from small level business to large corps to big picture finance issues. Trump is not so specific as Sanders, but Trump gives a *feeling* that he really is a pro jobs in America kind of guy. And like Trump would just get on the phone and yell at the Oreo cookie company, when they say they want to move the factory to Mexico. It may sound silly, but a POTUS has the bully pulpit -- it could make a difference. No corporation wants to have the President on tv going on about them, right?

So anyhow, that's how I see it. Bernie's a bit boring personality wise and too nice, but Trump's TOO MUCH of a bully for me, at times. And then, one actually has to worry a bit sometimes if this guy is a mussolini -- I actually think that stuff is jumping the shark, but it's a fair point that voters shouldn't even have to wonder about that.

I've already said it on this forum, if it comes down to Sanders vs Trump, then a decisive number of voters may conclude Sanders is the more cautious anti establishment vote.

Or maybe Trump will tone it down a bit, finally. Who knows. It's up to these candidates to campaign and everyone get a full and complete look at them, and swing voters will make their minds up at the end of it.
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Re: This is Politics

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 25 Jan 2016, 16:55:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', '[')img]https://41.media.tumblr.com/3cc6d31357c80d6552c6b55251b30acd/tumblr_nwi2mdbJKt1tftigyo1_500.jpg[/img]


I'm not going to argue with the conservatives on this forum, about Sanders. I know Trump is now the very likely GOP nominee, and you guys just have to go after Sanders and that's how it is.

But I won't argue with you. I like both of these candidates. BOTH Sanders and Trump share many positions, both want to get some of the same things done -- Sanders would do it with legislation, whereas Trump would just get on tv yelling that Apple ought to make their icrap here in America. And then voila, next day Tim Cook announces a measure to do more manufacturing in the US. I can see that happening, with Trump. :lol:

Sanders would do legislation, Trump does his big mouth, but both could get some of the same things done.

If Trump could just tone down the cringe-inducing stuff he does sometimes, then otherwise this would be a great election year if it were Sanders and Trump.

Usually we just have two establishment candidates that are both all for wall st and multi national corporations. It's like how Hillary Clinton and Rubio / Bush agree on so many things. There's a reason for that, they're the establishment.

Well, Sanders and Trump are on the other side, and yes they agree on several things that Clinton and Rubio are against.
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