[JohnDenver]

Multi-story hydroponic farms can greatly enhance carrying capacity:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'V')ertical farming practiced on a large scale in urban centers has great potential to: 1. supply enough food in a sustainable fashion to comfortably feed all of humankind for the foreseeable future; 2. allow large tracts of land to revert to the natural landscape restoring ecosystem functions and services; 3. safely and efficiently use the organic portion of human and agricultural waste to produce energy through methane generation, and at the same time significantly reduce populations of vermin (e.g., rats, cockroaches); 4. remediate black water creating a much needed new strategy for the conservation of drinking water; 5. take advantage of abandoned and unused urban spaces; 6. break the transmission cycle of agents of disease associated with a fecally-contaminated environment; 7. allow year-round food production without loss of yields due to climate change or weather-related events; 8. eliminate the need for large-scale use of pesticides and herbicides; 9. provide a major new role for agrochemical industries (i.e., designing and producing safe, chemically-defined diets for a wide variety of commercially viable plant species; 10. create an environment that encourages sustainable urban life, promoting a state of good health for all those who choose to live in cities. All of this may sound too good to be true, but careful analysis will show that these are all realistic and achievable goals, given the full development of a few new technologies.

[Wildwell]

That's another 6 barrels of oil up in smoke on MQs ranch. Law of Thermodynamics you know.

[Ludi]

Every decade or so this idea gets dragged out again, but has yet to be implemented. I'll believe it when I see it.

[Ebyss]

Well, it's one good use for all those soon-to-be-empty skyscrapers and office buildings. Also, they do raise chickens and rabbits on roof gardens in Cuba. I reckon vertical farming will happen, but it won't be in one swift movement, people will do it in their own places because they suddenly have to.

I don't know whether I'd want to eat indoor raised poultry and pigs though, we have that now.. it's called factory farming. That kind of intensive farming is to be avoided at all costs... apart from anything it spreads disease so fast (bird flu anyone?). People will always want to squeeze in as many animals as they can to maximise profits... it only causes problems in the long run.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'E')very decade or so this idea gets dragged out again, but has yet to be implemented. I'll believe it when I see it.

[BW3]

Veggies grow because of the sun. The sun only hits one side of your building. You do not have good production if you are partially shaded by your neighbors building. The flat earth society is correct here.

[pea-jay]

Who needs the sun when you got one of these puppies?!?!

I'll reserve comment on this until later

[bart]

Wow, interesting stuff, JD. I especially like the idea of using urban wastes for fertilizers.

I suspect that such schemes might be feasible in niche markets, where the value of fresh foods would be high and/or the cost of inputs would be low.

One problem is that hydroponics have required rather high inputs, in terms of equipment, energy and fertilizers. With PO, inputs would become even more expensive.

If one has the land, it's hard to beat regular farming and gardening. In urban areas, one can create growing areas using ingenious, low-input methods
(Organiponicos in Cienfuegos, Cuba).

[Ebyss]

Ok. This thread got me thinking about urban farming etc. With just 10 minutes of pondering I managed to solve the urban farming and PO useless car problem :

Car Greenhouse!

Cars are like ovens when they just sit there in the sun. They have windows you can roll down if you need ventilation. They're mobile, so you just roll them to wherever the sun is for most of the day. Turns out someone already made one (but I did come up with idea just now... so.. I still rock ).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'V')alley, Washington's Blanche Haynes, provided the vehicle's windows are still intact. Just arrange your plant flats, crates, and other containers within the cleaned-out automobile hull in whatever way you think will make for the most convenient watering and tending. Make it easy on yourself. And, for daytime ventilation, just crank open a window or two. Maybe you'll even find a vehicle (planter) with a sun roof!

[lorenzo]

Those who are interested in a new agricultural paradigm, bringing together architecture, urbanism, biotechnology, energy engineering and information technology may check out the concept of the vertical farm.
See this link: Vertical Farm.


Some doomsdayers think agriculture will collapse when PO arrives. Others advocate a community solution or a reduction of scale. The concept of the Vertical Farm shows that another option may be there as well.

Check it out, the site features a very interesting essay, pictures of designs and a forum.

From the website:

Advantages of Vertical Farming

* Year-round crop production
* Eliminates agricultural runoff
* Significantly reduces use of fossil fuels (farm machines and transport of crops)
* Makes use of abandoned or unused properties
* No weather related crop failures
* Offers the possibility of sustainability for urban centers
* Converts black and gray water to drinking water
* Adds energy back to the grid via methane generation
* Creates new urban employment opportunities
* Reduces the risk of infection from agents transmitted at the agricultural interface
* Returns farmland to nature, helping to restore ecosystem functions and services
* Controls vermin by using restaurant waste for methane generation

[FireJack]

It's not a bad idea. I always thought that getting sunlight to the lower levels would make it impossible. It will never happen though, at least thats my prediction. This kind of thing would require future planning, something that doesn't exist in this instant gratification world.

[bart]

Well, heck, another "magic" solution. It's fun to think about and good practice to analyze. But don't put your money into it yet!

Signs of a magic solutioni:
1. Sounds like something from science fiction.
2. No need to learn about the underlying process or take trouble with the niggling details. It will all be automatic!
3. Complex.
4. Centrally designed and managed.
5. Takes something simple, adds plastics and high tech, and charges an arm and a leg for it (common strategy with green marketing).

A limiting factor is the amount of sunlight that could be captured, as FireJack says. I don't see how it could be economic, with the amount of infrastructure required, when crops can be grown easily and cheaply in market gardens. Even as the price of oil increases, market gardening would be viable, whereas the cost of the infrastructure would rise.

History is a good place to look to see whether this is viable. If vertical farming is a brilliant idea, something like it would have developed in the past (our ancestors not being dolts). Urban gardens and market gardens close to cities have been very important in the past, as they are now in many parts of the world. In Asia (and probably elsewhere), human waste was harvested from the cities and used on fields. My guess is that similar patterns will hold true in the future.

One problem with any centralized, high tech solution is that good gardening requires human attention, someone to watch when the aphids are getting out of control or the plants are unhappy and need more water. This means lots of people looking over plots that they own (so they have motivation). Right now we get around this problem by a massive infusion of fossil fuels (fertilizers, pesticides, machinery). It will be more difficult in the future.

Finally, there's economics. Most of the people who really need the vegetables won't be able to afford the fancy infrastructure. And wouldn't it be nice if they would be able to earn a living by growing them for other people? (Rather than having the money go to technicians, marketeers and manufacturers?)

Vertical gardening could make sense for very rich enclaves removed from suitable cropland, maybe a vacation spot on an island. Or for rich hobbyists. No way that it could be a general solution.

[bart]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')eturns farmland to nature, helping to restore ecosystem functions and services

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bart', 'W')ell, heck, another "magic" solution. It's fun to think about and good practice to analyze. But don't put your money into it yet!

Signs of a magic solutioni:
1. Sounds like something from science fiction.

[pea-jay]

I am a vertical farm skeptic. No, actually not a skeptic, I believe this is a waste of time concept, for the simple reason of energy and raw materials consumption. Here is why:

Construction
Any way you cut it, this is a significant sized building. It would take a large amount of concrete, glass, plastic, steel, and other metals to construct. Most of those materials require a significant amount of energy, not to mention the raw ore / chemical feedstock to produce. While this is obviously a one-time expense, it far outweighs the conventional approach: find level land with halfway decent soils and adaquate water. At the moment this project is economically infeasable, but energetically possible to construct. Economics may change, but if you don't have the fossil fuels (or they are scarce), large scale construction will be difficult or impossible.

Light
There is still some debate on lighting of this facility. From all appearences, it will be partially dependent on artificial lighting, if not completely. Solar tubing may be able to light harder to reach interiors, but on a building that size a huge amount of floor space will have to be dedicated to solar tubing unless grow lamps are utilized. COntrast that to conventional ag: Free sunlight. Even today we haven't replaced the sun for that task.

Water
I think vertical farming is a winner in this respect. A controlled environment limits evaporation, more precise applications and no runoff. Rainwater could be captured and put to use.

Nutrients
This facility would almost certainly have to have chemical inputs. It may require less and have zero leakage but in the end, feedstock will still be required. It is likely hydroponics will play a large role here, necesitating precise measurements. I think vertical farming will score better than conventional farming in this respect (less nutrients per yield) but there are organic and biointensive methods that require no chemically synthesized fertilizers

Pesticides
This application will almost certainly require less pesticides. Since the atmosphere is highly controlled, the chance of infestation is much lower. Any infestation can be quickly put under control and pesticides, if needed would be in far fewer quantities. On the other hand, growing methods do exist that require no pesticides and don't require a multimillion dollar skyscraper to implement.

Waste
This one is a biggie, especially if there is livestock involved. This facility would produce a large amount of waste product, be it non edible portions of plants, contaminated water, urine, feces and odors. Some of this could be easily composted and reused but when it comes to livestock, this facility would essentially be a factory farm. Animal rights implications aside, thats a lot of shit in a real small foot print. Methane production would recapture some energy, additional amounts could be composted. But a significant amount of biosolids would remain. WHat would have to be done with those? Plus there is the inherent risk of disease when maintaining that number of animals in such a confined space. Finally, that place will stink to high heaven. Today's CAFOs stink and even if you could manage to keep the waste portion de-oderized, the stench from the pens, cages and stalls would be overpowering. Fresh air would have to be drawn in, but the exhaust would have to go somewhere. How will that be cleaned up? It may be possible, but I bet it requires energy to do so.

Energy Consumption
This one is partially covered in the above categories but the vertical farm would still require significant amounts of energy to operate. Electricity would have to be used to run lights (discussed) as well as climate control (building would heat up in most climates during the summer), elevators, pumps (vertical transportation still has to fight gravity remember) and sophisticated monitoring equipment. Gas would need to be used for heat for the building and various processes. Current modern CAFOs require natural gas to operate. Here in my county, dairys can use a significant amount of gas. In all cases where methane recovery is utilized, it still does not create more than than is drawn in from the utility.

Thats my assessment anyway. Conventional modern farming is already a caloric loser. I think this facility would be worse, even though it solves the land and transportation arguements.

Plus i think the conservation of land arguement is a spurious one. If these facilities increase yields and food is more wide spread, population will continue to grow, necessitating more vertical farms.

In the end I have two predictions for the future of vertical farms:

Peak Energy Paradigm
Peaking energy supplies will make this proposal a stillborn dream. We won't have the energy to build, maintain or operate the facility. We will hit peak food and if we haven't reduced our populations by that point, many will starve.

Limitless Energy Paradigm
If by some miracle we master fusion or zero point energy, vertical farms WILL BE THE FUTURE. We will have no choice. Continued growth (because we are genetic fools driven to grow) will force us to develop these structures to in order to feed our growing population. In the end, that will only encourage more growth (starvation is a great population limiting tool) and ever more food production. With limitless energy, we could still swing this though.

Perhaps if we are that "smart" and "advanced" we will at some point figure out how to nano-convert inedible raw materials into food, bypassing the vertical farm altogether.

[Ludi]

This scheme gets dragged out every decade or so. I think I've been seeing it for at least thirty years.

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')his scheme gets dragged out every decade or so. I think I've been seeing it for at least thirty years.

[Ludi]

I'm pretty sure I saw a diagram of such a thing in National Geographic years ago, but I'll look around and see if I can find some references for you.

[bart]

Ah, lorenzo, I like your enthusiasm.

However, I do think the project is insane. Three general reasons:

economics - farm labor is cheap, technicians and special equipment are expensive. pea-jay has covered a lot of this.

ecology - have you got a monoculture outside of an ecosystem? Then the ecosystem will find a way to you! Pests and diseases are a BIG problem in greenhouses and would be so in the sterile environment of a vertical farm. Once a pest/disease takes hold, there is no natural control to hold it back.

energetics - I love the idea of using organic waste to generate methane to generate electricity to power light bulbs to grow the plants to generate waste to generate methane.... Reminds me of a cartoon by Rube Goldberg

Since you mentioned growing dope hydroponically, here's a fun article A Real Farmer Looks at "Medical Marijuana". in which he waxes ecstatic over growing marijuana naturally:$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou can grow a plant and force it and do anything you want with it, because it's immobile and you're in charge. But if you want to grow a truly pain-killing, a truly inspiring, a truly mind-opening plant, then you've got to have a plant that's growing towards completeness. Volumetric yield is a secondary consideration. Pumping the plant to great imbalance with large quantities of nitrogen increases the chance of getting spider mites on it. Maybe having a fungal attack on the flowering portion and subsequent rot. Maybe having a soft-bodied finished product that tends to decay and is difficult to dry. Maybe having an aroma that is unpleasant, from nitrite-bonded elements that are actually toxic upon consumption.

This is not the intent, the spirit, the soul of that plant. That plant is a medicine and its spirit has got to be recognized and nurtured. If you go in the direction of a naturally supported plant -supported in terms of nutrition- it will have a complete immunological system, there will be no mites, there will be no mildews, there will be no critters attacking it. It has everything it needs to build its own immune system, and if it builds it to completeness, nothing can attack it successfully.

[Doly]

The reason it's worth to grow dope hydroponically is because the price is worth it, plus there is an advantage to grow it hidden. Does anybody bother to grow hydroponically in an apartment anything legal?