[Quinny]

The Tragedy of the Commons get's quoted sometimes as though it's gospel. I understand there's evidence that it was all based on conjecture and wasn't backed up by any research.

My experience of working with others on common land has been very positive, and I tend to see little evidence to support Hardin's theory.

Does anyone else have experience of the subject or working on common land?

[Cloud9]

The Grand Banks.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', ' ') The Tragedy of the Commons get's quoted sometimes as though it's gospel. I understand there's evidence that it was all based on conjecture and wasn't backed up by any research.

My experience of working with others on common land has been very positive, and I tend to see little evidence to support Hardin's theory.

Does anyone else have experience of the subject or working on common land?

[seldom_seen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'M')y experience of working with others on common land has been very positive, and I tend to see little evidence to support Hardin's theory.

[Quinny]

Having followed the links, I'll hold my hand up here and admit to agreeing with much in the article, and explain where I come from.

First the 'Tragedy of the Commons' has previously been thrown at me to justify the fact that common land must be privatised. I was quoted extracts from Hardin about the herders on common land and told that the theory came from studying English common land in bygone times. My understanding of the use of common land in local areas, and IIRC throughout England and the UK, was that it worked quite well in a self regulating manner. The theory that everyone will always act selfishly also doesn't square with my personal experience (BTW SeldomSeen - not just my 'permaculture buddies' - but including an urban environment and certainly not buddies, but a mixed community with potential racial problems!).

I looked up the references to the study of English common land, and some of the sources seem to be suspect to say the least. A critique (which I based the thread on) can be found here. http://links.org.au/node/595.

If the link you gave is the actual text of Hardin's 'Tragedy of the Commons' I don't have any major problems with it at least on initial perusal. It is however misquoted/misused by many to justify the promotion of privatisation. I apologise for not looking past the usage in more detail and for accepting the quotes at face value.

If however the actual text is saying that it is inevitable that common land will be mis/overused, I cannot accept that as a fact. It was the enclosure of the commons by the Church and Royalty in Britain that led to the overgrazing and destruction of much of Britains native forest. I'm not looking back to some rural idyll and I'm sure life was hard, but self regulation by local communities worked for many years.

The link you provided actually seems to argue against market forces and for regulation. One quote which comes immediately after the 'herdsman argument' seems particularly important.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')ducation can counteract the natural tendency to do the wrong thing, but the inexorable succession of generations requires that the basis for this knowledge be constantly refreshed.

[Grautr]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', ' ')The theory that everyone will always act selfishly also doesn't square with my personal experience.

[Narz]

The tragedy of the commons is bunk.

[seldom_seen]

One thing that should be pointed out is that humans are both altruistic and selfish. Some would like to imagine that humans are inherently selfish, or inherently altruistic. Not acknowledging that humans produce a varied degree of behavior. From yen to yang.



The nature of humans, or the ability of them to exhibit altruism does not discredit The Tragedy of the Commons. Why? Because we can see Hardin's theory in our daily lives.

The bailout of the banks with taxpayer funding is a classic example. The commons in this case is the currency. Giving the banks trillions of dollars hot off the printing presses, the cost is disseminated to the commons (US dollar). The dollar becomes diluted (polluted) and it can no longer buy what it used to. It's probably the most ingenious form of stealing ever devised. Your money gone, but your wallet never left your pocket.

Hardin called it the CC-PP game. Commonized costs, privatized profits. This is basically the operating principle of industrial civilization. From banking to mining, agriculture and manufacturing. People like to point their fingers at capitalism or socialism, but that debate is irrelevant. The CC-PP game can be seen in all industrial countries whatever ism or schism they adhere to.

[Cloud9]

I say again, the Grand Banks.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international ... -the-seals