[Angry_Chimp]

Civilization originates in delayed infancy and its function is security. It is a huge network of more or less successful attempts to protect mankind against the danger of object-loss, the colossal efforts made by a baby who is afraid of being left alone in the dark.”
~Geza Roheim, “The Origin and Function of Culture”

[mercurygirl]

Interesting idea, AC. I suggest to anyone "The Wisdom of Insecurity", by Alan Watts.

However, though I agree that humans have taken the need for security to extreme lengths, it seems obvious that all creatures have this need to varying degrees. The root is not civilization, IMO.

[roccman]

+1 chimp...

Bravo!

[Hagakure_Leofman]

Interrrresting theory.....

[hironegro]

What's the end game to all this in your opinion?

[Angry_Chimp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hironegro', 'W')hat's the end game to all this in your opinion?

[BigTex]

Angry_Chimp, you've touched on this topic in other posts, and I completely agree that when you take all of a person's belief systems away from him by systematically showing him that all of his values, all of his ethics, his entire paradigm of right and wrong is a sham, there may not be much left except a frightened and confused mass of flesh.

But having established that this kind of spiritual "skinning alive" is possible, the question is what its purpose would be. Why would one want to destroy the wholeness of another's world?

I don't like people doing that to me gratuitously, and I do my best not to do it to others gratuitously. If there is a bubble that I think needs popping, such as the reliable belief in population growth, economic growth and techno-fixes, then I will try to pop it, but it's because I believe there is the opportunity for enlightenment on the other side of that set of delusions.

In your views, however, I don't sense any enlightenment on the other side of the destruction of every delusion. I sense only an emptiness that feels about as close to death as one could get without actually dying.

If people have irrational beliefs that allow them to live with hope and optimism, on what basis would you seek to dismantle that mental state? There may be some basis for such an approach, I just would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

If all your version of reality has to offer is hopelessness and meaninglessness, of what value is it? In what way is laboring under a mass of pleasant delusions inferior to living a life of stark hopelessness?

To the extent that the only thing we are all seeking is a state of mind in which we feel a certain desirable emotional state, whether it be contentment, peace, excitement, danger or something else, if the mental infrastructure we adopt doesn't lead us to those pleasant states of mind, of what value is it?

This is an interesting topic, I just don't know if the places it takes you, while they may be "real", are of a whole lot of practical value.

I may be misunderstanding where you are coming from, so please feel free to clarify if I've missed it. From your other posts on this topic, I know you have a lot of thoughts on the matter.

[Zeeea]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hironegro', 'W')hat's the end game to all this in your opinion?

[Angry_Chimp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I agree but cant help notice you kept using male terms like him and his and man. You would be correct using that terminology considering women have only recently been given the opportunity to vote.

[Angry_Chimp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'A')ngry_Chimp, you've touched on this topic in other posts, and I completely agree that when you take all of a person's belief systems away from him by systematically showing him that all of his values, all of his ethics, his entire paradigm of right and wrong is a sham, there may not be much left except a frightened and confused mass of flesh.

But having established that this kind of spiritual "skinning alive" is possible, the question is what its purpose would be. Why would one want to destroy the wholeness of another's world?

I don't like people doing that to me gratuitously, and I do my best not to do it to others gratuitously. If there is a bubble that I think needs popping, such as the reliable belief in population growth, economic growth and techno-fixes, then I will try to pop it, but it's because I believe there is the opportunity for enlightenment on the other side of that set of delusions.

In your views, however, I don't sense any enlightenment on the other side of the destruction of every delusion. I sense only an emptiness that feels about as close to death as one could get without actually dying.

If people have irrational beliefs that allow them to live with hope and optimism, on what basis would you seek to dismantle that mental state? There may be some basis for such an approach, I just would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

If all your version of reality has to offer is hopelessness and meaninglessness, of what value is it? In what way is laboring under a mass of pleasant delusions inferior to living a life of stark hopelessness?

To the extent that the only thing we are all seeking is a state of mind in which we feel a certain desirable emotional state, whether it be contentment, peace, excitement, danger or something else, if the mental infrastructure we adopt doesn't lead us to those pleasant states of mind, of what value is it?

This is an interesting topic, I just don't know if the places it takes you, while they may be "real", are of a whole lot of practical value.

I may be misunderstanding where you are coming from, so please feel free to clarify if I've missed it. From your other posts on this topic, I know you have a lot of thoughts on the matter.

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I agree but cant help notice you kept using male terms like him and his and man. You would be correct using that terminology considering women have only recently been given the opportunity to vote.

[Devin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mercurygirl', 'I')nteresting idea, AC. I suggest to anyone "The Wisdom of Insecurity", by Alan Watts.

[Hagakure_Leofman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', 'C')ivilization originates in delayed infancy and its function is security. It is a huge network of more or less successful attempts to protect mankind against the danger of object-loss, the colossal efforts made by a baby who is afraid of being left alone in the dark.”

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Devin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mercurygirl', 'I')nteresting idea, AC. I suggest to anyone "The Wisdom of Insecurity", by Alan Watts.

[Angry_Chimp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')And "creating and nurturing life" is not also adding to what is unfolding on the world stage?

The stage is filled (crowded) with over 6 billion created and nurtured human individuals each of whom is about to play a role in the "'evil' unfolding."

[Angry_Chimp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Hardly. Civilization is simply the consequence of novel food production technologies. Specifically, domestication of livestock and the development of agriculture.

It's not difficult to see how a mind looking back imagines fear as the motivation for the invent of civilization. Especially a mind born within the warm embrace of civilizations benefits. However, without methods of increasing food production over hunter/gatherers, we simply would not have even been able to collect in groups - we would have staved!

[Angry_Chimp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Excellent Post, BigTex.

Why insist on tearing something down, unless you have something better to replace it with?
I believe we all know down deep that our world view is flawed. We are just doing the best we can to maintain a reason for life while we continue to look for answers.

[Angry_Chimp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')But having established that this kind of spiritual "skinning alive" is possible, the question is what its purpose would be. Why would one want to destroy the wholeness of another's world?

[vetusfirma]

Angry Chimp: It sounds like you are searching for the meaning of life. You have had your value system destroyed, as many peak oil savvy people have, and you now have no purpose. This doesn't make everyone evil, civilization evil, or the world evil. It just is 'a moment in time' as they say. Your not the only one to struggle. weaker people have wrapped themselves in one belief system or anther and are comforted in this way. They don't have to be aware, or mature or anything. But you appear to need to be.....everymans conscience. Just let them go, ignorance is bliss, after all.

And Tex, it was a very good post.

[Angry_Chimp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vetusfirma', 'A')ngry Chimp: It sounds like you are searching for the meaning of life. You have had your value system destroyed, as many peak oil savvy people have, and you now have no purpose. This doesn't make everyone evil, civilization evil, or the world evil. It just is 'a moment in time' as they say. Your not the only one to struggle. weaker people have wrapped themselves in one belief system or anther and are comforted in this way. They don't have to be aware, or mature or anything. But you appear to need to be.....everymans conscience. Just let them go, ignorance is bliss, after all.

And Tex, it was a very good post.