[coberst]

Dialogue ain’t for Sissies!

Human discourse seldom goes beyond adolescent styled discussion, debate, or argument. Intellectually, judging by our discourse, few Americans have the sophistication to undertake dialogue. I am 74 years old and have never experienced dialogue either as a participant or as a spectator. Our discourse seldom takes us beyond tacit (only a vague feeling) knowledge.

I am convinced that until we can dialogue we will never be safe from self destruction and perhaps even destruction of the planet for any life forms.

Few Americans are prepared to dialogue. Dialogue is much different from discussion and debate. To dialogue requires much preparation and our educational system have not prepared us for the practice of dialogue.

Our educational system is almost completely dedicated to rote teaching. Our system is almost totally a system of teaching by telling. Why is this so?

A didactic technique of educating young people is the most efficient way of inculcating facts into the memory of children. It seems to me that it is necessary to teach facts to children as quickly and as efficiently as possible during their early years.

It is vital that we have knowledge of many and varied types of algorithms. The more our lives are controlled by technology the more algorithms we must know.

However, there are no known algorithms for many problems that we face daily. Where we fail to have algorithms we must find ways to facilitate understanding.

How does the Socratic technique, or as it is more often called the dialogue method, enhance understanding by a student?

A classroom that is focusing on a dialogue technique of instruction would be one wherein there would be the usual teacher and a number of pupils. A question or a matter of interest would be introduced and pupils would be asked to give their opinion on the matter. Each student voicing a point of view would be subject to questions by members of the class and the instructor and each would be expect to defend the opinion as best they can. Such a class program would require, in many cases that the students come to class well prepared and ready to become an active participant.

The subject might be the American war in Iraq, for example. One can imagine in such a case that there would be many different points of view. Some students might be from homes wherein varying political affiliations might be held. Some students may be Muslims or Jews of Protestants. Such a question would elicit many and strongly held views. The views of all students would be subjected to questions focusing upon the quality of the argument supporting a view and perhaps questions that might focus upon the biases exposed by the view. Assumptions would be examined and questioned. The whole process is directed toward establishing a critical habit of thought in all students.

How does a young person who has finished their schooling develop their own value system?

How does a young person develop a sound intellectual foundation upon which to build a life?

What is a sound intellectual foundation?

How does a young person learn to ask the important questions?

[FourOfSwords]

Interesting coberst. As I see it, the education system in the US is incapable of teaching in any form, other than that of rote.
I feel that at non post secondary levels education is more about conformity than of free thinking.
Dialogue for the sake of dialogue is an interesting and at times stimulating endevour. But does not fit well into the N. American lifestyle we presently subscribe to.
For many, many years, I have been a strong proponent of the teaching of Rhetoric and Philosophy in schools, both tie in well I believe, with the concept of dialogue in a school enviroment.
My two cents worth...
Alex-wishing he had been educated in the Agora, or Stoa of Ancient Greece...

[Narz]

What prompted this thread coberst? Do you have grandkids you're thinking of?

[coberst]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FourOfSwords', 'I')nteresting coberst. As I see it, the education system in the US is incapable of teaching in any form, other than that of rote.
I feel that at non post secondary levels education is more about conformity than of free thinking.
Dialogue for the sake of dialogue is an interesting and at times stimulating endevour. But does not fit well into the N. American lifestyle we presently subscribe to.
For many, many years, I have been a strong proponent of the teaching of Rhetoric and Philosophy in schools, both tie in well I believe, with the concept of dialogue in a school enviroment.
My two cents worth...
Alex-wishing he had been educated in the Agora, or Stoa of Ancient Greece...

[coberst]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'W')hat prompted this thread coberst? Do you have grandkids you're thinking of?

[BigTex]

coberst, you sound like Mr. Dubois from Starship Troopers (book, not movie).

Socratic method is where it's at.

My 7 year old daughter came home with a grade of 60 on a worksheet and I asked her if she just hadn't been paying attention and she said no, she had been paying attention and she believed that her answers were correct. I asked her why she thought her answers were correct and she proceeded to defend each answer she had given persuasively. I asked her why the more obvious answers weren't better and she proceeded to explain why she felt that the more obvious answers were actually not responsive to the specific questions.

It was awesome. I'll take a grade of 60 and a kid who will step up and defend it persuasively over a 100 and a kid who doesn't remember what the assignment was about.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'a') 100 and a kid who doesn't remember what the assignment was about.

[patience]

Applause for teaching kids to THINK! That's the best we can do, because the problems they will face have not yet been solved. The best evidence I can give for reinventing our education system is that I have found that most of the rote learning I was taught in school was wrong. Having spent a good portion of my 61 years trying to correct my thinking was a needless waste of time, when it could have been done better.

We constantly presented our kids with choices, and made certain that they would get to live with the results of their choices, as long as it didn't cause any harm to them. It has worked out quite well. They have an unassailable sense of self esteem, and make good decisions.

[BigTex]

Someone asked my daughter one time whether she would rather be Cinderella or one of the step-sisters, thinking she would obviously say Cinderella. My daughter thought about it for a second, when the person said, "what are you thinking about?"

She said "well, the step-sisters don't have to work."



Chip off the old block.

[eric_b]

Great post. And important, as the right question is the correct answer.

My initial thought was this is not something easily taught. Truly inquiring minds are born, not made.

But then I thought about it some more, and realized this isn't entirely true. Unfortunately the educational system (here in America least) actively discourages this type of thought/discourse.

My father taught at a high school (history/philosophy) his entire life. He did teach some college placement courses, and attracting the brighter more motivated students he was able to introduce some dialogue.

Changing the educational system would help, but I don't see it happening. The culture needs to change also. (hmm, but where better to start than the educational system?)

Most 'knowledge' as it's taught doesn't penetrate very far. It often does amount to simply memorizing facts. Ludi's post amused me, reminds of this chick I sat next to in Biology class (HS). She always did well on the tests, even though she didn't understand much of it.. was good at regurgitating facts or answering multiple choice test questions.

Really don't have any answers. Seems to me, the older I get, many people simply don't like to think, let alone question. Especially question anything fundamental.

[Pops]

Parents are the most important teacher, they instruct through their every action.

Blame or credits schools or teachers or budgets or methods with fancy names but a child will follow the parents example every time.

[coberst]

eric

The place to start is for adults to become self-actualizing self-learners when their school days are over.

I recommend that each of us develop the hobby of an intellectual life. We could add to our regular routine the development of an invigorating intellectual life wherein we sought disinterested knowledge; knowledge that is not for the purpose of some immediate need but something that stirs our curiosity, which we seek to understand for the simple reason that we feel a need to understand a particular domain of knowledge.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eric_b', ' ')She always did well on the tests, even though she didn't understand much of it.. was good at regurgitating facts or answering multiple choice test questions.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coberst', '
')I recommend that each of us develop the hobby of an intellectual life.

[Atlantean_Relic]

tl;dr would be the response of those my age and younger. Dammit the younger ones don't even bother saying the words. I'm actually thinking about strangling the next teenager I hear actually utter l.o.l.