[dauterman]

One of the 7 low ranking soldiers accused of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal just pleasd guilty: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/02/engla ... index.html
but there have been claims that the abuse of prisoners originated from White House orders: http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0617-02.htm
Who do you believe? Stand up and VOTE

[AirlinePilot]

Again I see the conspiracy theorists are hard at work. I don't think it was all seven who had this in mind. Just a few of them was all it took. The entire affair was blown completely out of proportion by the liberal media. Why on earth would the administration want to bring this kind of publicity down upon itself in the midst of attempting to bring a nation back onto its feet? Destroy the credibility of the soldier in the street trying to help with water, food and medicine distribution?, the building of schools and infrastructure?, sorry does not compute.

The simpler and more likely explanation is that a few ring leaders convinced their fellow guards to either look the other way or join in on some harmless..yeah thats right..harmless pranks against the prisoners. humiliating yes but not really that big a deal.

You have a few not so smart troopers, who made some very bad decisions and then did some even dumber things and got caught.

[UIUCstudent01]

"Liberal Media" - that's a statement I have to contend with. I would have to say that it was a story that the media could NOT have passed up without showing that they are pretty much pawns (to 'ratings'/Bushies).

Don't play it down that it was just a bunch of 'pranks'. Jesus. It's torture. Get over it. And, in a sordid sort of way, I almost approve. Stop lying to yourself.

And it's government-sanctioned from the top. If it wasn't, the grunts wouldn't be getting a 'public-relations' trial. The people who looked the 'other way' would have been prosecuted as well. Now, this won't happen again! We have rules against recording devices and have outsourced. Yay! The trial is just a show.

[I also love how Airlinepilot says the troops did 'some dumber things' which was refering to letting the pictures getting out... It makes me sad. We shouldn't turn our heads from things we don't want to hear, nor approve of censorship. Freedom of speech, one of the founding patriots said, is the right to tell a man something he doesn't want to hear. (What else is it good for?)]

[killJOY]

Talk about Peak Oil for a change, will ya?

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('killJOY', 'T')alk about Peak Oil for a change, will ya?

[dmtu]

Eh, it was the one of the alphebet soup agencies, not nesecarily straight from the White House. Some men like dominatrix type gals. No blood no foul.

[AirlinePilot]

"Don't play it down that it was just a bunch of 'pranks'. Jesus. It's torture. Get over it. And, in a sordid sort of way, I almost approve. Stop lying to yourself. "

Your obviusoly not a student of History. Torture is what the Nazi's did to thier "medical experiments" in WWII and in the death camps for the Jews.

Torture is what the prisoners of the Japanese endured during the Bataan death march.

Torture is what the Prisoners of the North Vietnamese endured while staying at the Hanoi Hilton.

Torture is what the tenants of the Soviet Gulags endured prior to and during the cold war.

Torture is what the Kurds endured under Saddams watch.

Torture is what Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge doled out to Cambodians during the early 70's.

I could go on, do you get it yet????


What these prisoners endured was nothing less than some minor humilation at the hands of some obviusly misguided troops. I am pretty sure I have seen some frat pranks that were worse.

Rumsfeld, Bush et al had absolutely NOTHING to do with it. Your the one that needs to move into the world of reality. If you don't believe the media has a liberal bias then I have some land for sale in Arizona for you....cheap!

[threadbear]

Torture is reading your posts.

[CarnbY]

AirlinePilot: You are naively assuming that what was seen in the pictures are the worst things that ever happened in Abu Ghraib. Meanwhile US soldiers who have been there say things like "The violence there was sickening, some inmates were beaten nearly to death."
I don't see any reason why Rumsfeld & co. would have anything to do with the specific incident with the pictures, but if asked by his subordinates how far they were to go in interrogations? I don't doubt he'd say something along the lines of "however far you need to go." I guess you disagree with me there, but judging by Mr.Rumsfeld's words and actions I don't see him giving a rats ass about the lives of Iraqi detainees or US soldiers for that matter.

[AirlinePilot]

I'm not naively assuming anything, far from it. The case these people were tried for did not include violence of the kind your referring to. War sucks plain and simple, there is no easy or nice way to go about it. It's the nature of the beast. Having a bit of experience being in the military I can see how things like this happen. I do not condone violence or humiliation when it does not serve a purpose for the gathering of intelligence. No where have I said that what they did was right or acceptable. Personally I would reject such tactics and think torture should be a thing of the past. Unfortunately there are a lot of very bad people out there who do not hold those beliefs. If it means saving lives and resources to use such tactics, then replying in like kind is sometimes what must be done.

What planet have you people grown up on?

I simply see things for what they most likely are. I don't try and read conspiracy into every event that happens in the world.

threadbear,

come on, you can do better than that!

[AirlinePilot]

The Kurds were not at war.

By definition, we were not at war with the Vietnamese either.

The Khmer Rouge were not at war with the Cambodian people.


Does it matter really? Has anyone responding here failed to see that I DO NOT CONDONE TORTURE? I simply stated this already. Whether you are at war or not torture exists. My example stands, these prisoners were humiliated yes. They were not tortured in the ways most believe and percieve to be torture.

You can question my credentials endlessly but the fact stands that If you did some simple research, LIKE ASKING I could verify it easily for you. I chuckle at these types of posts, one of the first things to go for, stated credentials. Destroy credibility which can't be proven on the internet. Rather childish actually. Climb down off those ivory towers and see the real filth that is mans inhumanity to man.

Hurling insults and inuendo just because someone might have a different opinion then yourself is the first sign that your minds are closed. In a forum such as this embracing mature arguments seems to escape several of you. Why does a differing opinion elicit such immature attacks and slanders? Think about that for a minute before you hurl your next flame.

[AirlinePilot]

"AirlinePilot ... can you define compassion?

Quote:
It's torture. Get over it. And, in a sordid sort of way, I almost approve and then blah, blah, bah, bah, baa, baa, bleet ... "

Raphael,

If you had read the entire thread and looked at the included quotes, you would have seen that this one did not come from me. I don't agree with that statement for the record.

[UIUCstudent01]

Just to clear things up. I was looking at the torture thing from the perspective that we were at war. And that both sides had reasons and stuff - a 'classic' war if there ever was one. (I.E. if one side is doing it, we might as well too. I don't exactly agree to this - but I understand thinking in terms of advantages and disadvantages in warfare without thinking about sentimentality...)

I don't agree to Iraq at all. My statement is misleading on my thoughts about it. Short answer to what I think about it: 1. We're there for oil/control/something to do with economics. All unjust reasons. (+Bush lied, over and over and over.) 2. We're killing innocents at an alarming rate - i.e. we're creating more 'terrorists'. Thus, EVERYONE IS A POTENTIAL TERRORIST. GOOD LUCK! If you look at pictures at how some of these people have died - it's not pretty. Headshots are not glorious. 3. We won't see peace until we leave (the sentiment against America won't leave for awhile.) 4. I hate the Neo-con agenda of Pax Americana which is just too arrogant for me - it's like hearing someone say that he will live forever. 5. I do recognize other people as persons worthy of respect.

So, yeah. My statement is misleading. But, I wanted to get across to airlinepilot that it is torture - stop acting like a hardass.

[AirlinePilot]

"Ok, macho man prove they had NOTHING to do with it."


Well obviously I can't, why don't you prove that they did have anything to do with it?


"Me from Green and Blue Earth
You from Planet of War, the Green, Red and Blue Earth"


Well Bingo there my friend. I have grown up seeing both sides of this wonderful planet. There are both good and bad. I am able to see both with open eyes. Your comment about not seeing ALL of the colors is telling.

"So you spent time in the military, polluting your soul, performing shitty deeds toward your fellow man, following some dogma and now you have difficulty shaking your demons. "


Missed the target with that one my friend! I joined the military to help misguided souls like yourself be able to speak freely and worship as they see fit, living the lifestyle they choose. I felt it my obligation to serve in this countries military due to patriotism and a sense of duty. Duty to my country and my fellow man. The only dogma I followed was and is one of honor, integrity, courage and service. The fact that you openly insult this service speaks volumes about your lack of character, respect, and compassion for your fellow man. It also indicates to me you have some deep seated disdain for those very members of the military who provide you with this security!


"Unless as a soldier you have gone through a near death experience, your perspective is skewered."


I submit my perspective is all the much better having served. Again it goes to the concept of seeing both sides, obviously you have serious problems with that.


"Let us examine how you received your perspective growing up in the USA

1/ first an illiterate educational system
2/ a right wing Christian fundalmentalist slant
3/ indocrination into the cult known as the military
4/ each and every step is monitored by the tutor ... TV (Fox, CNN etc.)"

Sorry wrong on all accounts, as is usual with this type argument. Have you never had a course in logic or debate? Using insults is usually a last ditch attempt and indicates a loss of control over the topic at hand and ones ability to reason.

"I have never picked up a gun by choice. You too can make that choice."

I did make that choice, and I honor your choice in not doing so. You see because I made that choice it contributed to what we call freedom. In this country and anywhere else around the world freedom doesn't come on a silver platter. It is fought for and held onto by passionate people who believe in that concept. Unfortunately there are many on this planet who are eager to take it away. I refuse to give it to them. I refuse to let them take it from you. I am willing to lay my life on the line for that concept, even if it means doing it for people who might not agree with me. These are the concepts that the MAJORITY of our military men and women operate under every day. If you choose not to believe this, that's your perogative.

If you can call this "polluting my soul" or "performing shitty deeds toward your fellow man" then you have a flawed ability to grasp reality.

[AirlinePilot]

UIUCstudent01,

Thanks for the clarification. I was simply trying to point out to Raphael that those words were not mine, not rying to be difficult at all.

[threadbear]

Airline Pilot:

War implies a somewhat evenly weighted battle. The US attacked a defenseless country under false pretences, and without provocation, killing many innocent people. This ISN'T war. Technically it fits the definition of a "massacre"

A govt and it's people can't wage wars of aggression and then get all precious and philosophical about the role of torture in the "real world", because there are "bad people" out there. Of course there are bad people out there. But who's the baddest at the present moment? Outside of the Congolese rogue militias cannibalizing pygmies, it's the good old USof A.

Read some of Seymour Hirsch's writings. He writes for the New Yorker mag, among other publications, and is very highly regarded. I believe he was responsible for breaking the My Lai Viethamese massacre story many years ago. If my extreme anger confuses you, you'll understand after you read some of his articles. I'm sure they're on-line. Do you have the courage to challenge your own opinions? Or do you lump everything that doesn't set well with you, the rantings of conspiracy theorists?

I'm sorry if I offended you. I'd like to think you're just out of the loop for some reason, not weak and easily duped.