[happycrop]

EDIT:

PLEASE NOTE, DISCLAIMER:
THE FOLLOWING FROM THIS PARTICULAR POSTER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANIMAL WELFARE, ANIMAL RIGHTS, OR THE IDEA THAT ANY DIET IS IN ANY WAY MORALLY SUPERIOR TO ANOTHER. THEREFORE ANY REFERENCE TO THESE THINGS HAS BEEN MADE ON A STRICTLY OFF-TOPIC BASIS AND IS NOT CONNECTED TO THE OP. ANY FUTURE REFERENCE SHOULD NOW BE ADDRESSED TO POSTERS OTHER THAN THE OP, PREFERABLY THOSE WHO ACTUALLY BROUGHT THEM UP. UNFORTUNATELY ANY ON-TOPIC COMMENTS WILL ALSO HAVE TO BE MADE TO OTHER POSTERS IF A REPLY IS DESIRED. PRIVATE MESSAGES MAY GET A RESPONSE, AT THE DISCRETION OF THE OP. IT WAS SUPPOSED THAT THE LINK TO PEAK OIL WOULD BE OBVIOUS, AND THAT NOT MENTIONING MORALITY WOULD BE ENOUGH TO INDICATE THAT THERE IS NO NEED TO ARGUE ABOUT IT. CLEARLY THIS WAS AN INCORRECT ASSUMPTION. IN THE FUTURE, THE HUMAN BEHIND THIS POST SHALL NO LONGER ASSUME THAT NON-VEGANS ARE NOT COMPLETELY OBSESSED WITH THE MORAL ISSUES SURROUNDING ANIMAL FOODS, OR WILL NOT FEEL PERSONALLY THREATENED AND LOSE ALL ABILITY COMPREHEND TEXT WHEN CONFRONTED BY THE MERE CONCEPT OF NOT CONSUMING THEM FOR ANY REASON. LESSON LEARNED.


The 'we're designed to eat meat, so we need it' argument is flawed. This is partly cut and pasted from my post in another thread:

We're designed to be able to eat meat (and raw meat only - carcinogens in cooked meat may be partly responsible our species' and meat-eating Western society's cancer levels, hence vegetarians in the West get 3 times less cancer and live 7 years longer than their meat-eating neighbours), among many other things. Humans have the ability to obtain every one of our essential nutrients from non-animal sources, provided the soil we live off of contains the right mineral balance (e.g. enough cobalt to make vitamin B12), as it used to. Find me just one nutrient that humans can obtain only through eating animal products, and I will concede that we are designed to need meat. So far the desperate meat and dairy and recently, fish industries, despite their best efforts, have failed to validly do so, so I doubt anyone here can either.

It's like saying we're designed to need nuts. We can live with no deficiencies at all on a diet without that particular food group, even though we're designed to be able to safely get nutrients from them if we do include them.

I also find it funny that people who are appalled by the idea of GM crops eat farmed animals, as these were all genetically modified in a far more haphazard way than the DNA engineering carried out now. Modern 'cows' and 'pigs' that have had their wild instincts largely bred out of them by human selection, look much more different to their ancestors than GM carrots look to non-GM carrots. How can we know how different their nutritional content might be to that which our ancestors consumed, even if uncooked?

Here's one helpful example of the many webpages addressing important things for vegetarians and vegans to know.

http://www.fcs.uga.edu/pubs/current/FDNS-E-18.html

I recommend as much research about nutrition as possible, especially for people who aren't vegetarians now but think they're likely to be forced to be in the future. Personally, I'm going to apply for one of the few courses, commissioned by the National Health Service, that make possible registration with the Health Professions Council as as a qualified Dietician. It's six years of continuous study, so I shouldn't forget a word by the time the knowledge becomes vital.

Finally, relax. This article shows that it's possible for people outside of civilisation to live long, happy lives as vegans. Longer than the Western average, actually:

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/life/2005/01/07/stories/2005010700080200.htm

The few thousand Brok-pa Aryans have over 5,000 years lived in these hostile terrain at 15,000 ft altitude, subsisting on a vegan diet.

Music and dance are a way of life for them. Both men and women wear colourful costume, decorating their hair with flowers, and are full of joi de vivre. They live in harmony with nature, and are cheerful and stress-free despite living in small rock shelters. They trek long distances.

Almond, apricot and walnut form part of the diet along with endless cups of black tea fortified with barley flour.

The weather in September is pleasantly cold, though temperatures in January can plummet to -20 degrees Celsius. There are an unusually large number of Aryans above 70 years. Many are active even at 90.

[killJOY]

Try to take this pickled pig's foot from me. Come on, I dare you.

Maybe you'll peel it from my cold, dead hand.

Nothing wrong with "being" vegetarian. Many people make a considered decision for good economic, health reasons.

Then there's moralists like you, who are not satisfied "being" vegetarian: No, you have to be RIGHT.

You're like the bisexuals who aren't happy just being bisexuals: No, they have to create the myth of their own superiority over those other, limited people. "Why miss out on the other fifty percent of the population?"

You vegans see someone eating meat, and that's all you see: MEAT EATER.

You forget that many of us raise hundreds of our own vegetable crops a year.



Shove the Pig's Foot a Little Further Into the Fire.

[happycrop]

Um, did you actually read my post?

Sorry, but I don't have time to reply to comments that don't address the thread topic. I hope the majority of people who'll survive won't be so rude or time-wasting, or we don't stand a chance.

[killJOY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')orry, but I don't have time to reply to comments that don't address the thread topic.

[happycrop]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('killJOY', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')orry, but I don't have time to reply to comments that don't address the thread topic.

[TorrKing]

Happycrap,

Then why do all vegans look pale and have grey hair then?

You are right about eating raw meats. Raw or semi cooked meat is much more healthy and richer in vitamins (including vitamin C) and minerals. Do not eat carnivores and omnivores raw though. And not rodents or horse either.

[killJOY]

Title of forum:$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')eak Oil

[eric_b]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', 'H')appycrap,

Then why do all vegans look pale and have grey hair then?

You are right about eating raw meats. Raw or semi cooked meat is much more healthy and richer in vitamins (including vitamin C) and minerals. Do not eat carnivores and omnivores raw though. And not rodents or horse either.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eric_b', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', 'H')appycrap,

Then why do all vegans look pale and have grey hair then?

You are right about eating raw meats. Raw or semi cooked meat is much more healthy and richer in vitamins (including vitamin C) and minerals. Do not eat carnivores and omnivores raw though. And not rodents or horse either.

[killJOY]

I buy grass-fed beef locally. Good stuff, even raw.

Roll up a ball of hamburger. Salt and pepper it. Chow down. Good!

[Lore]

I like my Bambi with cranberry sauce, some fava beans and a nice Chianti.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('happycrop', 'M')odern 'cows' and 'pigs' that have had their wild instincts largely bred out of them by human selection, look much more different to their ancestors than GM carrots look to non-GM carrots. How can we know how different their nutritional content might be to that which our ancestors consumed, even if uncooked?

[happycrop]

Can no one see how ridiculous this is? Some of you people should be disgusted with yourselves. Do the kids in your neighbourhoods see you behave like that? Utterly shameful. I'm getting out of here before it skews my view of healthy human conduct. If the subject weren't important, I'd attempt to give you the social training your parents should have by ignoring you until you speak with consideration and decent manners. I suspect that you're all older than me, yet your seniority actually earns you minus points in the respect stakes when it proves to have failed to be able to produce better grace. I've never known anyone be so rude and confrontational, whatever age and mental capacity. If this is the face of the peak oil community, no wonder it's slow gaining recruits. I'd rather starve than subsist in that kind of community. Seriously. We're social mammals, most of us.

Torjus: Image search vegans or meet some to find your answer.

killJOY: My agenda is what I hope everyone's on this site is. Sustainable living. Animal husbandry is unsustainable with such a large population (I'd be amazed if most people here didn't know that, given the detail in which they know the other issues), so I'm letting people know they don't have to get malnourished without it or continue to waste land and resources in using it to poison themselves.

Gideon: I don't study Sociology and have never had the desire. My interests are science and health, hence I'm going to study Nutrition and Dietetics formally.

Cooked food is tastier (as are many harmful chemicals we use to preserve or flavour it). That's probably why the vast majority of human societies adopted it en mass. Incidentally, cooking vegetables unnecessarily is also detrimental. The before and after of nutritional content is shocking.

I believe cows' milk is considerably more unhealthy than meat. Certainly your method is much better than the industrial way, but you can't get past the natural proteins and hormones (one of which is known to contribute to tumour growth) implicit to a product that is designed to make a heavy, three-stomached, small-brained animal grow very large, very fast. Not to sustain any other, vastly differently-designed species into adulthood. There is plenty of webspace devoted to that debate, but to get you started, you might want to google it alongside 'autism', 'ADHD' 'schizophrenia', 'asthma', 'eczema', 'osteoporosis' and 'cancer'.

I don't want to get into an ethics debate here. I'm sorry that others have given the impression that that's what the thread is about, but notice I never once made a value judgement in the OP. I'm not touching that one with a 80 foot pole, seeing how defensive people get about biology.

Jack: What I mean is that all cattle are drastically different from the days before unnatural selection. Without exception.

Anyway, I hope you all get something positive out of this forum and can cure your anti-social tendencies in time for whatever the future brings.

Bye.

[NEOPO]

Jack - Yeah man but you only like ketchup because it resembles human blood!

I on the other hand worship the Goddess of Tomato goodness and could probably eat them with all my meals or even make a complete meal with them.

As far as animals go we are going to try goats, chickens and/or ducks and rabbits.

Goats for milk for cooking and the free lawn service they provide.
Chickens for their eggs, excellent fertilizer and leaner meat plus their services in the garden.
Rabbits for their excellent fertilizer, their fur and leaner meat.

We might continue using some beef but it will probably be something we trade for in the future. Fresh organic beef is quite a delicacy especially considering the EROEI yet I also am having a hard time imagining not enjoying the occasional Hamburger or steak fillets mixed with sauce, sauteed onions, peppers and mushrooms.... <belly growls> :)

We probably do not need animal products to eat yet to survive post peak I think so. We have a slight problem called erosion and chemical fertilizers to replace. Not sure how we are going to do this without help from the animals.
Give us your poop please

[Twilight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('happycrop', 'C')an no one see how ridiculous this is? Some of you people should be disgusted with yourselves.

[killJOY]

Oh, my. We're so naughty here. It's almost, like . . . well, a FEEDING FRENZY.

My final word on the subject, lest my BAITING seem to make me out to be too much of a brute:

1. We grow and eat far more vegetables than meat. I love plants.

2. The meat we eat comes largely from our farm: pork, chicken, turkey. Beef is grown nearby. I try to eschew store-bought meat.

3. We drink whole milk right outen our cow. Make yogurt, cottage cheese, butter.

Life is good. And tasty!

[DavidFolks]

Well Happycrop, I guess I have to weigh in.

I'm not going to go on about moral stances or opinion about what a human being needs to eat to be healthy.

I agree that human beings are designed with the capacity to derive nourishment from several sources, and do not necessarily need to eat meat.

If you look at historical Inuit culture though, you'll find that humans can survive with very little in the way of plant matter as well.

The point to this post is twofold:

1) We are lucky to live in a culture that allows us the choice of being vegan. While we can live on plant matter only, it is only a sustainable choice in areas where we can grow everything sufficient to our dietary needs. In some areas, growing seasons are not conducive to raising the plants in combinations we need for balanced nutrition, and we supplement with animal proteins and fatty acids.

2) Cost of energy to ship sufficient variety of plant nutrients to supply our dietary needs is where the peak oil effect comes into play. Local fruits, vegetables, nuts, and animal proteins from small, diverse farms are a sustainable way to feed communities. Shipping food around the world is not.

[happycrop]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Twilight', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('happycrop', 'C')an no one see how ridiculous this is? Some of you people should be disgusted with yourselves.

[Twilight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('happycrop', 'P')lease, please tell me you simply haven't read the thread in order to realise what I was actually referring to. Because if you think that's an OK way for adults to behave... I just hope you really don't get to meet people offline, ever.

[happycrop]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gideon', 'M')ost of the "dieticians" I have ever met couldn't tell you the compositional difference between fat and carbs.