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Evolution

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Evolution

Unread postby Armageddon » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 13:46:24

An Atheist Professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the
problem science has with God, The Almighty.

He as ks one of his new students to stand and.....

Prof: So you believe in God?

Student: Absolutely, sir.

Prof: Is God good?

Student: Sure.

Prof: Is God all-powerful?

Student: Yes.

Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to
heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill.
But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?

(Student is silent.)

Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is
God good?

Student: Yes.

Prof: Is Satan good?

Student: No.

Prof: Where does Satan come from?

Student: From...God...

Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

Student: Yes.

Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything.
Correct?

Student: Yes.

Prof: So who created evil?

(Student does not answer.)

Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these
terrible things exist in the world, don't they?

Student: Yes, sir.

Prof: So, who created them?

(Student has no answer.)

Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and
observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen
God?

Student: No, sir.

Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?

Student: No, sir.

Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, or smelled your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?

Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?

Student: Yes.

Pr! of: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
cience says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.

Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

Prof: Yes.

Student: And is there such a thing as cold?

Prof: Yes.

Student: No sir. There isn't.

(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)

Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can ! hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that.There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

Student: You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light,
flashing light.... But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't.
If it were! , you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't
you?

Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but man has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that ! they evolved from a monkey?

Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, then yes, of course I do.

Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize
where the argument is going.)

Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your own opinion, sir? Are you not a preacher rather than a scientist?

(The class is in uproar)

Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?

(The class breaks out into laughter)

Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelled it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face
unfathomable.)

Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

Student : That is it, sir.... The link between man & God is FAITH.
That is all that keeps things moving & alive.


Now guess who the student is........
.
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.....
....
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..
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.....
....
...
..
.




That young man was ALBERT EINSTEIN.......
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby Grimnir » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 13:49:58

This story is not true, in case anyone had any doubts. :roll:
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby dhfenton » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 13:50:53

You ar espreading urban legends that happen to fit your world view. Einstein was added to this legend as it grew.


Here's a link concerning this very story:

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/e/einstein-god.htm
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby Wildwell » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 13:55:55

Student : That is it, sir.... The link between man & God is FAITH.


The trouble is there are a lot of different faiths...

Right I'm off to draw a cartoon :P
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby J-Rod » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 13:56:25

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Re: a story about God

Unread postby gego » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 14:03:38

Another myth in your little story is where you stated no one has observed evolution.

Tell that to a dog breeder. Go find some pictures of pigs from farm books back in the 1920's and compare them to pigs today and tell me you have not observed evolution. If bacteriologists have not seen evolution then why do antibiotics not work on them like they formerly did? If evolution does not exist then you do not need to worry about the bird flu virus evolving so that it can be transmitted human to human.
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby Leanan » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 14:13:51

Um...how is this a current event related to peak oil or energy?

If you're gonna post silly chain-letter spam, why not the "let's boycott the gas stations" one. :P
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby Wildwell » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 14:48:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', 'A')nother myth in your little story is where you stated no one has observed evolution.

Tell that to a dog breeder. Go find some pictures of pigs from farm books back in the 1920's and compare them to pigs today and tell me you have not observed evolution. If bacteriologists have not seen evolution then why do antibiotics not work on them like they formerly did? If evolution does not exist then you do not need to worry about the bird flu virus evolving so that it can be transmitted human to human.


As you say plenty of documented evidence for it..

Researchers have found that the shape of the human skull has changed significantly over the past 650 years.

Modern people possess less prominent features but higher foreheads than our medieval ancestors.

Writing in the British Dental Journal, the team took careful measurements of groups of skulls spanning across 30 generations.

The scientists said the differences between past and present skull shapes were "striking".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4643312.stm

As comforting as it is, when people stop believing they are the chosen ones and the little old man in the sky is going to save them and wake up and make the best of things instead of squabbling about which book is right and wrong we'll be a lot better off.
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby anthem » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 15:01:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', '
')Tell that to a dog breeder. Go find some pictures of pigs from farm books back in the 1920's and compare them to pigs today and tell me you have not observed evolution. If bacteriologists have not seen evolution then why do antibiotics not work on them like they formerly did? If evolution does not exist then you do not need to worry about the bird flu virus evolving so that it can be transmitted human to human.


Dog and pig breeds have nothing to do with evolution. Evolution presupposes the addition of new genetic material. No matter how many ways pigs are bred, they will continue to be pigs, the same for dogs. Resistant bacteria have not evolved; the resistant ones have merely survived but remain the same type of bacteria. Evolution theory has not explained how novel USEFUL genetic material comes into existence. Random mutations are universally bad and do not give rise to new species. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Regarding the change in shape of human skulls: Again, humans of 650 years ago are not different genetically from modern humans. We humans still have the same number of chromosomes and genes that we've always had. Certain phenotypes might be more common today but in our DNA we are still the same old humans.

I agree with Leanan, this thread belongs in Open Discussion, where I suspect it might EVOLVE into something that belongs in the Hall of Flames :-D
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 15:07:25

[smilie=bs.gif]

I have absolutely seen evolution happen. You test a bacteria. It is sensitive to a certain antibiotic. You treat the patient with the antibiotic for say 2wks. She's still not feeling well so you retest. Well, golly, how'd that happen. All of a sudden the bacteria are resistant. Where'd they come from? The resistant disease fairy? No they EVOLVED!
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby Leanan » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 15:21:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')volution presupposes the addition of new genetic material.


No, it doesn't. In any case, we've seen that happen, too. Missing and extra DNA sequences are very common "copying errors." Even entire extra chromosomes, though that's usually not a good thing.
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby anthem » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 15:42:22

Evolution, as the theory stands (wobbles?) today, requires that new genetic material be introduced through random mutations. How do you, Leanan, propose we go from one species, say a lower primate, to another, say a human, without the addition of new genetic material? Force of will? I don't want to be a human anymore so I'll just pretend to be a cheetah and I'll evolve? No. I need some other genetic material (as an embryo), and not only that, if I want my new species to survive beyond me, I'd better mutate my spermatocytes to generate this new genetic material and find me a nice lady who's had the same "fortunate" mutation in her oocytes.

Random mutations do occur, and do occur in the sperm and egg of higher animals, but are universally bad. In the history of evolutionary theory, even with hundreds and thousands of scientists working with millions upon millions of little fruit flies and other little creatures with short reproductive cycles, there has been no demonstration of evolution.
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby anthem » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 15:56:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '[')smilie=bs.gif]

I have absolutely seen evolution happen. You test a bacteria. It is sensitive to a certain antibiotic. You treat the patient with the antibiotic for say 2wks. She's still not feeling well so you retest. Well, golly, how'd that happen. All of a sudden the bacteria are resistant. Where'd they come from? The resistant disease fairy? No they EVOLVED!


First of all, bacteria is a plural word. In the population of bacteria, say the streptococcus pyogenes species, there are individuals that are resistant to penicillin and those that are not. (Most are very vulnerable to penicillin.) Of those that are, there might be enough that survive an attack by an antibiotic that one would recover a bit from his sore throat only to have it come back with a venegance. Fortunately, antibiotics usually kill off enough that the resistant ones aren't able to muster enough of a population to reinfect the individual. The resistant ones, though, were there from the beginning.
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 17:00:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', 'R')andom mutations do occur, and do occur in the sperm and egg of higher animals, but are universally bad.


Absolutely untrue. Lactose tollerance is a perfect example. Mammals in their normal state make an enzyme to digest lactose when they are babies. As they get into adulthood they all loose that enzyme. Somewhere along the line humans started herding other animals, so they had access to milk even into adulthood when no normal mammal would. One of them developed a mutation affecting their lactase enzyme such that it persisted into adulthood. This allowed them to better digest the milk from their caribou or whatever and gave them a survival advantage. It spread and now a significant number of the humans on the planet, especially those where herding was/is common are lactose tollerant.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')here has been no demonstration of evolution.


That is laughably inacurrate. As I mentioned above treating infectious diseases has become pretty much an evolution-in-action workshop. Just since I was in medical school we've seen massive evolution in bacteria in response to antibiotics. It is not unusual to see bacteria evolve in response to antibiotic therapy even in a single patient. Similarly we've seen evolution of insects in response to insecticides, plants in response to herbicides. You could fill a textbook with all the different kinds of evolution that have been demonstrated.
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 17:09:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', 'T')he resistant ones, though, were there from the beginning.


In some cases they are. In some cases they aren't. Some bacteria can pick up a plasmid of DNA that was produced by an entirely different species of bacteria and use it to start making something that makes them immune to antibiotics. In most instances a few individuals start off being weakly immune and are once stimulated become more strongly immune.

Regardless that is about as perfect a description of evolution as you can get. Through random mutation biology is constantly trying out different combinations of genes. Some end up as Jerry's kids and the organism dies off. Occasionally one makes the individual more resistant to environmental pressures and the gene proliferates. Bacteria just have much shorter life spans and quicker generation turn over than we do so it's easier for us to observe evolution in them than in ourselves.
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby anthem » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 17:56:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '
') Somewhere along the line humans started herding other animals, so they had access to milk even into adulthood when no normal mammal would.


So you're trying to tell us that people began drinking milk before they had lactose tolerance? Whatever for? They enjoyed indigestion? Arguments such as this hark back to Lamarck and acquired traits. They drank milk so eventually, fortuitously, the perfect mutation happened:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'O')ne of them developed a mutation affecting their lactase enzyme such that it persisted into adulthood.


There is absolutely no evidence that the genes that control lactose digestion arose from a mutation. It's fantasy and pure speculation on the part of people devoted to the religion of evolution.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'T')his allowed them to better digest the milk from their caribou or whatever and gave them a survival advantage. It spread and now a significant number of the humans on the planet, especially those where herding was/is common are lactose tollerant.


The only thing accurate in your post is this. People who were able to digest milk obviously took advantage of that foodstuff and bred more like themselves, though not exclusively because lactose intolerance persists among all populations. Again, this did not give rise to a new species and there is absolutely no evidence that the genes controlling this arose from random mutations.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'S')imilarly we've seen evolution of insects in response to insecticides, plants in response to herbicides. You could fill a textbook with all the different kinds of evolution that have been demonstrated.


Why don't you start by telling all of us about the new species of grasshopper or aphid or whatever that arose from the application of a particular herbicide. Since there are enough examples to fill a textbook, go get that book and post just one example. Something like "Dissosteira longipennis (a midwest US grasshopper) evolved into Dissosteira monsantoatrazinis (an imaginary monster)" and a reference.
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby anthem » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 18:02:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '
')In some cases they are. In some cases they aren't. Some bacteria can pick up a plasmid of DNA that was produced by an entirely different species of bacteria and use it to start making something that makes them immune to antibiotics. In most instances a few individuals start off being weakly immune and are once stimulated become more strongly immune.


A transfer of a plasmid does not create a new species or new kind of organism. Again, this is not creating new, inheritable, and advantageous genetic material for the population of bacteria. <edit: changed the reference to the individual organism>

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'O')ccasionally one makes the individual more resistant to environmental pressures and the gene proliferates.


It takes considerably more than one individual with a mutation for the mutation to persist. Again, it has never been demonstrated. I cannot prove a negative. All you have to do is cite some examples where a mutation persisted and was an advantage to the organism. Surely in all the years of the study of genetics, a mutation has been generated in the lab and passed on. Where are all these new species of bacteria, fruit flies, rats, etc.?
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby Armageddon » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 20:07:54

animals or species evolving from one to another would leave millions of fossils showing this gradual change. But, scientists and archeologists are baffled at the deeper they dig, the more bare the earth becomes. They are starting to realize that man just appeared . Thats why mans beginning appears at a certain level of earth.
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 20:54:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', 'S')o you're trying to tell us that people began drinking milk before they had lactose tolerance? Whatever for? They enjoyed indigestion?


Hint. Cats...are lactose intollerant. If you've ever had one you are probably aware that they do seem to enjoy drinking milk despite the indigestion.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', 'A')ll you have to do is cite some examples where a mutation persisted and was an advantage to the organism.

Already did. Lactose tolerance. Methicillin Resistant Staph Aureus. Azithromycin resistant pneumococcus. Quinine resistant Malaria. Multi-drug resistant TB. Different coloration paterns in English Peppered Moths that use to be gray until soot stained all the trees and now the moths are black. DDT resistant house flies. Click here to learn about the weeds in your state that have become resistant to herbicides.

This is starting to feel like the arguements I have with my wingnut friends who are convinced that smoking isn't unhealthy.
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Re: a story about God

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 06 Feb 2006, 21:00:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anthem', 't')here has been no demonstration of evolution.
this is silly, of course there is a demonstration of evolution. It's in the fossil record for all to see. See calcified dinosaur bones. See long time ago remnant. Things have changed, ergo evolution happens. Easy.
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