[lotrfan55345]

I live in Minnesota, where from October through April there is a "significant" (more than 8 inches) snowfall every 3 weeks or so. Minneapolis averages 35 days (or something) of above one foot of snow on the ground. The city's economy during the winter depends on the large fleet of snowplowes and other snow removal tools to keep the roads and sidewalks clear of the snow. At what period in time do you think the government is going to stop, because when it does, the economy of snow-plauged cities will come to an abrupt end (in winter) and many people will go hungry.

I think the government will have difficulty even this year if the $2.70/gallon diesel prices continue... link Link broken.

[Cool Hand Linc]

most likely they will have problems. If you need heating oil get it while you can. Before the cost goes up or the roads get covered with snow.

[k_semler]

Why not just do like they do around here? Leave the roads alone, and let the cars pack it down. If you get stuck, either call the sheriff, or find a neighbor to pull your ass out for $10.

[FireJack]

Its the same thing here. We get a lot of snow in the winter and I wonder if we are going to be completely isolated in the winter. I imagine they'll just cut it down to important throughways and stop doing sideroads etc.
After that, I guess its back to wheterver it was before snowploys.

[Tyler_JC]

Don't bother with snow removal.

Have everyone buy a big SUV, they can use that Hemi power to bash the snow drifts.

Which of course, will help curb demand for oil.

I don't know what will happen. The snow has to be moved. Or the city dies. So taxes will go up to pay for it. Eventually it will become unaffordable for everyone and there will be a mass exodus from the far Northern cities.

Combine this with the mass exodus from Phoenix, LA, and Vegas...

Kansas is getting kinda crowded.

[I_Like_Plants]

Snow, and especially packed down snow, is very slick - someone looked for effeciency should drool. It may take studded tires, or a driving set of tires and runners, but back in horse and buggy days, snow used to actually help transport heavy loads, because people could get the sleighs/sledges out.

[k_semler]

Yes, it is. But I haven't had a wintertime wreck since I was 16. As long as you drive somewhat slow, (use some judgement for proper speed), give yourself 2x the following and braking distance, slow down for corners, and accelerate slowly, you will have virtually no problem. To increase visibility to other drivers, keep your low beams on, (if you have the $35.00 Xenon bulbs), or your fog lights on at all times your vehicle is on a public road. It really isn't too tough if you are aware of your surroundings and the road contitions at all times. It does kind of suck having to dig your car out of your driveway because you are drifted in though. But if it gets bad enough, I just call my father and he plows out my driveway with his massey. Of course, having a 1981 Oldsmobile Delta 88 does help somewhat with drift busting.

[lotrfan55345]

My parents just bought an AWD Subaru Forester (which gets 30mpg highway so don't say it's a gas guzzling SUV.)... hopefully that can be enough to get through unplowed roads. I heard it's popular with skiers in the Rockies, so it hopefully will have good handling in the snow.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy not just do like they do around here? Leave the roads alone, and let the cars pack it down.

[lotrfan55345]

The seasonal outlook is out form the Harris Mann Climatology people, here are their forcasts:

Zone #3: THE PRAIRIE PROVINCES OF CANADA, THE NORTHERN U.S. GREAT PLAINS AND THE MIDWEST CORN AND SOYBEAN BELT

Early frosts and freezes may occur from Interstate 94 northward, but they shouldn't be as damaging to crops as the big freeze in August of 2004. Off-and-on showers are expected during the late summer and early fall period. It should be very wet, but milder than normal from mid-October through the early December period. The winter season should be a pattern of EXTREME weather in short order across this part of the country.



http://www.longrangeweather.com/map/default.htm#

[frankthetank]

lotr~I'm just downhill from you on the Mississippi. Its funny because around this area (LaCrosse) it seemed like evey storm either stayed south or north the last few years. Last year MSP was snowless for a long time, right? We finally caught a break in March when around 15+ inches fell from the sky. Having lived here for almost 30 years, i wouldn't worry a whole hell of a lot about snow. A good set of tires will get your through almost anything. Just keep an eye on those nat gas prices, thats the worry i see.

[Trab]

Snow removal will happen, just slower, and maybe for the main trunk lines. In addition to shoveling out your driveway, you may be expected to take a section of the street in front of your house as well.

Here's a link I found to a history of snow removal that may shed some light on things.

Bottom line is, in the future, after a heavy snowfall, people probably won't be expected to be at work on time like they are now, as it's just not practical for many people.

Of course, depending on your view of how things will turn out, you may either be on the farm, or in the tenement. In both of those cases, it's not as big a deal as it is for car commuters.

[lotrfan55345]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', ' ') Last year MSP was snowless for a long time, right? We finally caught a break in March when around 15+ inches fell from the sky. Having lived here for almost 30 years, i wouldn't worry a whole hell of a lot about snow. A good set of tires will get your through almost anything. Just keep an eye on those nat gas prices, thats the worry i see.

[gg3]

Ahh, a nice picture of a blizzard!

Snow removal doesn't have to be a problem.

Horse-drawn plows and rotary brooms can deal with local road accumulations of up to about 6". In sufficient numbers, these can keep ahead of most storms in most areas.

Keep in mind that a snow plow is nothing more than a truck with a specially-designed blade attached. Any reasonably heavy truck will do nicely. In most cities, sanitation trucks are fitted with plow mounts so they can do snow removal duty on their own or, if need be, while out collecting refuse.

Rotary plows (large snow throwers) were in use on the railroads when they were powered by coal-fired steam. This technology is still in use, powered by diesel engines. There should be no problem keeping the rail traffic running. Plows can also be fitted to urban light rail vehicles, to keep their own tracks clear, plus a few feet of road or sidewalk on either side.

A plow route is a single truck driving through all the streets in an assigned area. One truck trip through each street. If there's not enough fuel to do that, there's not enough for the rest of the trucks that deliver everything else, not to mention the cars, to be out in the streets in the first place.

In the absence of household snow blowers, neighbors will help each other dig out their driveways and sidewalks with shovels, as they did up until about the 1950s.

And if there are no cars, then a horse-drawn sledge with a blade and a tamping board, will smooth the stuff out and pack it down so sleighs can be run.

Snow is nature's least dangerous emergency. People need to learn to slow down & enjoy the opportunity to have a couple of days off from their usual routines. And then go outside and play.

[eastbay]

Isn't (or wasn't) there a big city in the upper mid-west that intentionally had no snow removal system simply let the snow melt. I remember reading of this long ago... it seems like it would work just fine, although there would be periodic disruptions to movement.

EB

[marko]

I live in the Boston area, which gets about 6 feet of snow in average winter. (Last winter, more like 10 feet.) Of course, it doesn't all fall at once!

Since at least the late 1990s, there has been growing resistance to state and local taxes in Massachusetts, partly because of the spread of anti-government ideology, partly because, like everywhere else in the US, everyone below the top tier of earnings has seen a drop in living standards and an economic squeeze.

The result has been deteriorating road maintenance, including less frequent and thorough snow plowing. Last winter, there were several days when people at my company were excused from having to come into the office because roads were impassable or treacherous.

I think that this trend will grow in the immediate future.

In the longer-term future, what is left of our cities will return to earlier modes, such as the horse-drawn plow and teams of human shovelers.

[lotrfan55345]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I')sn't (or wasn't) there a big city in the upper mid-west that intentionally had no snow removal system simply let the snow melt. I remember reading of this long ago... it seems like it would work just fine, although there would be periodic disruptions to movement.

EB

[mgibbons19]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'l')otr~I'm just downhill from you on the Mississippi. Its funny because around this area (LaCrosse) it seemed like evey storm either stayed south or north the last few years. Last year MSP was snowless for a long time, right? We finally caught a break in March when around 15+ inches fell from the sky. Having lived here for almost 30 years, i wouldn't worry a whole hell of a lot about snow. A good set of tires will get your through almost anything. Just keep an eye on those nat gas prices, thats the worry i see.

[eric_b]

lotrfan55345:

This is a good point. I live in Madison, WI, and already we're having budget
problems. In years where we get a lot of snow we often run into the danger
of going over budget as far as snow removal. It's a big expense. Between
plowing, sanding and salting the roads it takes a giant fleet of big fuel
hungry vehicles to do this.

I think things have been getting worse. The past few years they've been
concentrating on the major arteries and letting the secondary streets go.
Once the snow gets packed down it tends to turn into ice over time.
Especially at the intersections where constant acceleration buffs out the ice
until its really slick. Nasty.

Though it sems our Winters have gotten relatively warmer with less snow.

gg3 writes:
] In the absence of household snow blowers, neighbors will help each
] other dig out their driveways and sidewalks with shovels, as they did up
] until about the 1950s.

The majority of people around here still shovel their snow by hand. That
hasn't changed. And people that do have snowblowers tend to help
their neighbors out by blowing the snow off all the adjacent sidewalks.

When I was younger I used to make money after a big snowfall (> 6-8 ")
by walking around with friends (and shovels) and offering to help
out people whos cars had been plowed in or shoveling out the ends of
driveways plugged with snow from the plows. Most I made in an afternoon
and evening was >$120.00. Hope your back is in good shape.

[Trab]

This thread is another example of how we've used cheap energy to more or less render the change of seasons ineffective. Two feet of snow on the ground? No problem! Get the plows out and dump tons of sand & salt, and everyone will get to work on time, work in 72F comfort, and get some fresh fruit from the cafeteria.

When energy becomes more expensive, one of the issues we get to deal with again is that a significant snowfall will mean delays in getting to school, work, etc.

As an aside, there are plenty of days in the winter in MN where the temps will get above freezing. It usually won't last for more than a day or two, but it happens. If the temps get to 38F with plenty of sun, the streets will heat up enough that 2" or so of snow will melt on it's own. My house has a blacktop driveway that faces south, and if I wanted to, I could make a couple of random passes with the shovel in the AM, and let mother nature take care of the rest for me during the day.

[eric_b]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Trab', '
')As an aside, there are plenty of days in the winter in MN where the temps will get above freezing. It usually won't last for more than a day or two, but it happens. If the temps get to 38F with plenty of sun, the streets will heat up enough that 2" or so of snow will melt on it's own. My house has a blacktop driveway that faces south, and if I wanted to, I could make a couple of random passes with the shovel in the AM, and let mother nature take care of the rest for me during the day.