[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '
')Smooth roads are easy to maintain when there is little heavy goods traffic. Tar is cheap.

[dorlomin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '
')Smooth roads are easy to maintain when there is little heavy goods traffic. Tar is cheap.

[anador]

The ironic thing about this is that roads are both worn out and maintained by traffic.

Just look at any road which has had no traffic for a couple years. The asphalt cracks, crumbles, and eventually plants take root.
Asphalt remains somewhat pliable which is why it can be melted and re-used.

The constant pressure of traffic helps to mold asphalt down and keep it from buckling, especially where there is a freeze thaw cycle.

Roads that havent been re-surfaced in awhile also start to take on a distinctive wavy profile, with troughs where the tire ruts press and a raised crest where the chassis doesnt touch the pavement.

When shit falls apart, dont expect roads to last just because theres no cars on them. (though concrete highways dont behave like this and will last a great deal longer than asphalt)

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '
')
If Zimbabwe can have a usable road system why not a post peak America?

And that said a good broad tyre and you can go places that are inaccessible by most motor vehicles.

[The Practician]

What about when shit doesn't fall apart to the point that some sort of workable road infrastructure, maintained to a level adequate for bicycles and heavily reduced motor vehicle traffic, is an impossiblity? I don't totally discount the possibility of an armageddon scenario in my lifetime, as the the fact of nuclear weapons in the hands of desperate and resource hungry societies is not something any sane person can just shrug off. However, that's not exactly the future I'm pushing for. If energy waste can be given up with a semblance of decorum we can probably still have roads of sorts for quite some time, even if it's not 4 million miles worth.

[Pops]

The pothole singularity is coming!

The potholes will join together to become one and it will happen way before ICE vehicles are abandoned.

Infrastructure is crumbling as we speak and we've still not reached the absolute liquid fuels peak, why would roads improve after they begin to decline?

Sorry, we're way off topic.

[anador]

If people can make fire and organize themselves its not impossible to break up the road-surface, re melt it and re-apply it.

It is ALOT of work and will probably be seen as a luxury when there are no huge machines to do it.

But, brick streets, concrete streets, and smoothed cobblestone or paver streets do not have the problems of asphalt and can be maintained easily by human hands.

Bricks are easy to produce locally almost everywhere and provide a very smooth surface for bikes and cars.

Commonly bricks and other pavers can be repaired and replaced in small sections, as opposed to asphalt or concrete which suffer from terrible surface inconsistency unless long sections are re-done all at once.

[Lore]

It really all depends on your view of whether we will have a hard or a soft landing. In a tribal future world, one group may not want to pave its way to another and have them enjoy the sweat of their brow, or create a breech in security. Barter Town's streets may ultimately look like those of the old West cow towns.

Just something to chaw on.

[anador]

Way back when the towns would be paved, but the roads in the country were dirt paths. Even in the United States until the 1920s inter-city roads were basically unpaved paths.

The romans were the one ancient society that actually exerted themselves to create inter city roads, for reasons of their own military survival. (okay incas and a couple others, but it is a rarity)

More than likely we will return to such a state, where the town maintains the roads within the town and maybe a couple bridges outside, but beyond that, infrastructure is just too costly to maintain without slaves and an imperial government.

[Beery]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'B')icycles in a post apocalyptic world are highly impractical for any distances. They require flat, smooth and well maintained surfaces on which to operate efficiently. Expect high maintenance in trying to cut paths through ruff terrain.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Beery', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'B')icycles in a post apocalyptic world are highly impractical for any distances. They require flat, smooth and well maintained surfaces on which to operate efficiently. Expect high maintenance in trying to cut paths through ruff terrain.

[PhebaAndThePilgrim]

Good day all:
Gravel roads are expensive to maintain. Gravel roads need almost constant grading. The gravel is constantly being displaced and worn down.
The pilgrim and I noticed in 2008 that the county road department was using a cheaper grade of rock. Cheaper rock grinds down faster. Faster grinding down means more dust.
We used to pay for dust maintenance. We no longer have the money to waste on such luxury.
My husband and father-in-law actually take their tractors and grade the road themselves, especially in the winter. My husband also helps to clear the road of snow, and clears neighbors driveways. The road must be maintained to move rain from the center of the road. Water can not stand on a gravel road. It should flow off the sides, ditto for blacktop.
Our state road department recently closed down several maintenance stations because of lack of funds.
One of our neighbors was a real nutball. He was in his mid 30s, yet spent most of his time doing goofy stunts on a four wheeler, and on motorcycles.
He would spin wheelies on the gravel road in front of his house. He did this all of the time, even late at night. As I said, he was a nutball.
He always had potholes in the gravel road in front of his house. He moved away a few years ago, and no matter how many times new gravel is laid, there are still potholes in front of his house. Gravel is hard to maintain properly, and does not handle abuse.
Also, as more people move from the city to the country, the gravel road has more use. The city people drive very fast on the gravel roads. Seems they are always in a hurry, and since they have not had experience on gravel roads, they do not understand the damage they are doing by driving fast, or they just don't care. Gravel roads are not built to withstand high speed traffic. The momentum of a car going at a high rate of speed on gravel spews the rock off the road, especially on curves. Cars going at a high rate of speed on gravel roads also creates a washboard effect, and causes potholes. I do not know why this happens, but it does.
From what I have witnessed I do not think gravel roads are the answer. They are very high maintenance, and take a lot of petroleum to maintain.
Pheba.

[anador]

Okay, I live on a gravel road.

The problem you are describing Phebas, happens when you have loose gravel on a road.

there is no prepared roadbed, no binding or containment... and yeah the shit falls apart.

In the 1820s a scotsman named MacAdam developed a new way to create inexpensive gravel roads that did not have these problems..... the Macadam process or simply macadam.

The process relied on setting gravel of uniform size into a prepared coped roadbed, and dusting the top with stone dust mixed with water as a cementing binder to fill the gaps.

The road relys on traffic weight for compaction and formed a hard, mud free and longlasting barrier.

The macadam technique was used in the country, but fell out of favor with the introduction of asphalt.

Gravel roads we have now are just plain sh**ty in comparison. They shed water to the sides, freeze totally solid in winter, so plows dont damage them, and are easy to maintain.

All gravel roads are not created equal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macadam

[Hoops_Mckann]

Not sure how much worse the roads here in Kansas City could get. I have incurred over $400 in allignments and new tires (damaged by potholes, deteriorated roads) as my job involves exntensive driving (claims adjuster). The cars of the future will need thicker sidewalls and more forgiving suspension to negotiate the ever increasing rough roads. Since the 80s more and more cars are being equiped with low profile tires, that will likely phase out as the roads detriorate over time.

One thing I have noticed is a correlation of lack of semi traffic and better road conditions (on the highways).

[smiley]

I think potholes are the least of your worries. What about the bridges.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')sually built to last 50 years, the average bridge in this country today is 43 years old. While safe to travel, almost one in four bridges is either structurally deficient and in need of repair, or functionally obsolete and too narrow for today’s traffic volumes

[sparky]

.
A side to the discution not covered yet
before roads were bad and ill maintained because the heavy traffic used iron bound wheels
those cart carried a couple of tons on a very small contact area ,
the static pressure was huge
it would destroy any surface quickly , good road became possible when people switched to inflatable tyres ,the ground pressure is much lower ,
it made maintaining the roads a financially viable proposition ,
before , they would become a sea of mud in the wet

pneumatic tyres and low friction ball bearings are used in every poor country
usually it's an old car axle with the cart mounted on top ,
the whole thing pulled by some animal
it is very efficient and long lasting

[PhebaAndThePilgrim]

Good evening: We are in mid-Missouri. We are north of the Ozarks, some of the oldest hills on the North American continent. We took a drive down to the Ozarks today to buy some summer sausage at a great processing place. The gravel road we went down was in great condition compared to our road. And, our road uses a higher grade of gravel.
The pilgrim said that was because the Ozarks are basically rock with a minimum of topsoil. Water runs off quickly, and the gravel road was basically sitting on rock.
Our soil base is clay, hard-pan clay. The water has nowhere to go on the gravel road so either sits on it, or must have a place to run off.
The pilgrim said as far as maintenance of gravel roads is concerned: "It all depends".
I have learned over the years that "it all depends" is a farmer's answer. There are many variables, soil, weather, etc. I should have known.
Pheba.

[Beery]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'A') horse on the other hand can double the 1897 bicycle corps average miles a day and carry more or pull many times more in a team.

[Lore]

I'll bet on the horse everytime over a trail covered in two feet in snow.

Ask the Park Rangers if you can take your montain bike on the mule trail down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon.

True, horses need feed and get old, sick and die, but guess what? So do you! Grandma and grandpa are going to have to conserve their limited calories without breaking their legs or kneck.

In an imaginary post apocalyptic world bicycles will have a place, but I doubt very much if you're going to be able to find parts to fix a Shimano derailleur. On the other hand, find two horses of the opposite sex of breeding age and you can always make another.

In such a fantasy world it's back to the basics.

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PhebaAndThePilgrim', '
')..."It all depends".