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There is No Gas Shortage

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 05:38:34

There is No Gas Shortage

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut Washington, Wall Street, and ethanol and oil and gas companies want you to think there is, says automotive expert Ed Wallace

"They see speculation in the market, I see decline in global inventories. I don't think this is a big surprise, that we've had a jump in price when there has been a decrease in crude inventories."— Energy Secretary Sam Bodman, Bloomberg News, Mar. 5, 2008

"It should be obvious to you all that the [gasoline] demand is outstripping supply, which causes prices to go up." — President George W. Bush, Associated Press, Mar. 5, 2008



In January of this year, the U.S. used 4% less petroleum than we did a year ago. (Oil demand was down 3.2% in February.) Furthermore, demand has been falling slowly since July of last year. Ronald Bailey of Reason Online has pointed out that worldwide production of oil has risen 2.5% in the first quarter, while worldwide demand has grown by only 2%. Production is expected to increase by 3.3% in the second quarter, and by as much as 4.1% by the third quarter. The net result is that the U.S. daily buffer for oil production against demand, which was a paltry 1.5 million barrels as recently as 2005, is now up to 3 million barrels in excess capacity today.

Instead, the Bush administration is protecting those responsible for creating yet another speculative bubble in oil futures, and is protecting investors in the ethanol industry—much to the detriment of food-processing companies such as Pilgrim's Pride. And the net result of all this is that the prices of crude and gasoline rise ever higher thanks to a "shortage" that does not exist, while food costs are soaring thanks in part to the ethanol mandate.


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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby TonyPrep » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 06:09:08

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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby idiom » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 08:31:31

What I want to know is why 2/3 petrol pumps in Sydney have 'Out of Stock' tags on them the whole time.
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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby DantesPeak » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 09:48:14

There is no gasoline shortage, but the last few months saw a severe diesel shortage around the world.

The only way to get more diesel is to refine more oil, even if that leaves us with some extra gasoline you don't need right now.

Also it's a bit of a stretch to say a four week period in the US is an accurate representation of the whole world's oil demand.
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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby jlw61 » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 10:05:49

You're right, there is no gasoline shortage, that's why the prices are only $3.25 right now. It's a real bargain compared to the prices that will be demanded when a shortage actually occurs!
When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 10:18:15

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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby joeltrout » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 12:42:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '
')The only way to get more diesel is to refine more oil, even if that leaves us with some extra gasoline you don't need right now.



I always love this argument from people that say build more refineries and expand the ones we have. If someone believes in peak oil then they would realize refining more oil, means producing more oil, which means accelerating peak oil and the not-so-pretty aftermath.

Its a Catch 22.

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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby DantesPeak » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 13:46:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joeltrout', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '
')The only way to get more diesel is to refine more oil, even if that leaves us with some extra gasoline you don't need right now.



I always love this argument from people that say build more refineries and expand the ones we have. If someone believes in peak oil then they would realize refining more oil, means producing more oil, which means accelerating peak oil and the not-so-pretty aftermath.

Its a Catch 22.

joeltrout


Good point.

The only refineries the world needs are new ones to process low quality oil, but they can close down the older ones just as fast.
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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby joeltrout » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 14:07:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '
')
The only refineries the world needs are new ones to process low quality oil, but they can close down the older ones just as fast.


I agree totally. I think almost everyone is in agreement that the easy to produce, high quality oil is slowing fading away even if they don't believe in complete peak oil. Its crazy though that we don't have any new refineries being built.

If people believe tar sands are bigger than the entire Middle East then you would think people would want to build many refineries specifically for tar sands.

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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 14:35:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', 'T')here is no gasoline shortage, but the last few months saw a severe diesel shortage around the world.

The only way to get more diesel is to refine more oil, even if that leaves us with some extra gasoline you don't need right now.

Also it's a bit of a stretch to say a four week period in the US is an accurate representation of the whole world's oil demand.


Dante, perhaps you can comment further on this in the Diesel fuels thread but I have a weird question for you. Jet fuel is basically Kerosene aka Deisel #1 fuel vs the Diesel #2 found most places. If a big airline goes out of bussiness and nobody takes up their slack due to declining demand for air travle how much of those distillates can be diverted to trucking/busses? I assume a company like Delta consumes millions of gallons a fuel per week, how much would that improve diesel supplies if it were diverted to over the road vs airline uses?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alfred Tennyson', 'W')e are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby Peepers » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 16:18:06

Why expand or build more refineries when the only new refinery ready to be built in the U.S. since 1976 (the Arizona Clean Fuels plant) is unrealized for want of Mexican oil and financing? I realize not all refineries can refine all types of oil, but the message from this experience underscores the reason why significant additions to refining capacity will end up being white elephants without significant additions to oil production (to say nothing of the lengthy permitting process!).
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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby DantesPeak » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 17:42:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', 'T')here is no gasoline shortage, but the last few months saw a severe diesel shortage around the world.

The only way to get more diesel is to refine more oil, even if that leaves us with some extra gasoline you don't need right now.

Also it's a bit of a stretch to say a four week period in the US is an accurate representation of the whole world's oil demand.


Dante, perhaps you can comment further on this in the Diesel fuels thread but I have a weird question for you. Jet fuel is basically Kerosene aka Deisel #1 fuel vs the Diesel #2 found most places. If a big airline goes out of bussiness and nobody takes up their slack due to declining demand for air travle how much of those distillates can be diverted to trucking/busses? I assume a company like Delta consumes millions of gallons a fuel per week, how much would that improve diesel supplies if it were diverted to over the road vs airline uses?


Jet fuel demand, surprisingly, doesn’t seem to be slowing. Jet fuel demand is 3.7 percent higher over the last four weeks compared to the same four-week period last year, using today’s inventory report.

I am not an expert on refining operations and cracking crude. However based upon news reports, it appears that jet fuel and similar fuel grades are generally in high demand throughout the world – almost reaching shortage conditions in some areas. If there is some excess in the US, it can be shipped profitably to another country.

So in general, I do not expect refiners to alter their setup to produce less jet fuel right now.
Last edited by DantesPeak on Wed 02 Apr 2008, 19:02:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby seahorse2 » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 18:00:24

The refinery issues are serious and tie in to "peak light crude" and peak oil. Here's two old threads on refinery issues:

Peak Refinery Capacity = Peak Oil

Or this refinery thread:

Refinery Capacity - ICF
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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 22:57:41

We've Got Oil

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ednesday morning, the government reported oil inventories outside the Strategic Petroleum Reserve shot up 7.4 million barrels over the past week, way above the 2.1 million barrel increase forecast. The daily inbound flow of crude to refineries stepped up 72,000 barrels last week to 14.2 million barrels. While not awash in oil, at 319.2 million barrels on hand, the U.S. is doing better than is typical this time of year. That should keep a lid on prices, barring some fresh supply insult.

Even though daily gasoline production inched higher, to 8.6 million barrels, inventories of refined motor fuels fell hard last week, decreasing by 4.5 million gallons. Insiders had bargained for a 2.2 million barrel drawdown. Still, stocks are above the seasonal average, so pressure on wholesale prices isn't likely to moderate soon. Gasoline stocks are up better than 10% from year-ago levels.

Supplies of distillate fuels, including heating oil, decreased by 1.6 million barrels, pretty much in line with estimates. Supplies are still relatively tight for this time of year.


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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby DantesPeak » Wed 02 Apr 2008, 23:54:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', '[')b]We've Got Oil

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ednesday morning, the government reported oil inventories outside the Strategic Petroleum Reserve shot up 7.4 million barrels over the past week, way above the 2.1 million barrel increase forecast. The daily inbound flow of crude to refineries stepped up 72,000 barrels last week to 14.2 million barrels. While not awash in oil, at 319.2 million barrels on hand, the U.S. is doing better than is typical this time of year. That should keep a lid on prices, barring some fresh supply insult.

Even though daily gasoline production inched higher, to 8.6 million barrels, inventories of refined motor fuels fell hard last week, decreasing by 4.5 million gallons. Insiders had bargained for a 2.2 million barrel drawdown. Still, stocks are above the seasonal average, so pressure on wholesale prices isn't likely to moderate soon. Gasoline stocks are up better than 10% from year-ago levels.

Supplies of distillate fuels, including heating oil, decreased by 1.6 million barrels, pretty much in line with estimates. Supplies are still relatively tight for this time of year.


seekingalpha


A majority of "gasoline" inventories are actually just blending components. Conventional gasoline inventories (excluding unfinished blending components) are up only 1.8 million barrels over last year's severely low levels. That's hardly anything to cheer about.

In the summer, about 15% of 'gasoline' used is alkylate - said to be in short supply. Northern US states won't fully convert to summer blend for another month, so it remains to be seen if we have enough finished gasoline to get us through the summer.
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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby TonyPrep » Thu 03 Apr 2008, 03:15:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', '[')b]We've Got Oil

seekingalpha
According to EIA data, global consumption has exceeded production for the last 17 months (up to Feb). US weekly data show crude oil stocks rising for most of this year. Global stocks have been going down. One must assume that the US is outbidding others, in trying to get their stocks up for the driving season.

The "we" in We've Got Oil, is not the world, generally.
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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 03 Apr 2008, 04:38:36

These IEA charts may be of interest.
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby TonyPrep » Thu 03 Apr 2008, 05:56:56

The article made use of EIA data sets. I was, therefore, using EIA data to illustrate a point. The IEA have also been worried about falling stocks but the picture, with their data will look a little different.
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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 03 Apr 2008, 07:16:36

Latest from IEA
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Re: There is No Gas Shortage

Unread postby muon » Thu 03 Apr 2008, 08:58:48

I am really confused by this article. Surely the US doesn't have 3 million barrels per day of excess capacity? Don't the EIA figures show that the US has a 15 million barrel per day deficit of production to demand?

Does the world have 3 million barrels per day excess production capacity online? Is this what he's referring to? If the answer is yes, how does that all belong to the US?
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