[dohboi]

This area is supposed to be for "big picture" issues. Well, I can't imagine a much bigger-picture issue than this.

We still seem to be stuck in the mind set of trying to find "improved means to unimproved ends." Why do humans need a new energy source, or any energy source at all? What do humans do with the energy that they have that is so damn valuable?

I believe Heinberg raises this question at the end of one of his books, but it seems to me worthy (perhaps the only topic truly worthy) of a vigorous discussion by the thoughtful participants of this forum.

If we found a limitless, environmentally benign power source tomorrow, what would we use it for? What of deep worth have we used the bonanza of fossil and nuclear fuel for so far?

Making for ourselves a shallow consumer society that destroys the rest of complex life on earth? Was that really a worthy use of these unique energy sources?

If we don't know what a proper use of energy is, should we be so eagerly seeking to find a new source?

OK--have at it, folks...

[Oil-Finder]

Hmm, let's see . . .

Where I live, right now it's about 25 degrees F outside. Would I prefer to be living in some wood shack with a fire? Or would I prefer my nice, comfy apartment, with electric heating?

I'll take the electric heating any day, thank you.

It's also night, and hence, dark outside. Would I prefer to rely only on a fire for lighting? Or are electrical lights preferable?

Once again, I'll take the electric lights any day, thank you.

I won't even talk about my electrically-powered computer, which both myself and you are posting on an internet forum with.

If electricity is just something from a "shallow consumer society," then I suppose I must be a shallow consumerist. And so are you, since you posted this question on an electrically-powered computer.

[IanC]

Oil-Finder, we could also posit that this represents intelligent discourse via a very useful electronic medium and, thus, a worthwhile use of electricity. I for one have certainly learned a lot of ways to better myself and community of of this forum.

I think dohboi's point is well taken. Assuming basic needs of food, shelter, and electric heat are provided for, a lot of electricity brought about by unsustainable means goes for truly idiotic pursuits. Not only idiotic, but destructive. If we had an unilimited supply of a "new" fuel, we'd just waste it, too.

Right now, we generate electricity to keep up with "demand". But what is that demand for? Xboxes? Internet porn? Zillions of street lights in places where there are no people? There is a lot of waste that can be culled and will be culled in the near future. If we really are at a 4.5% depletion rate of oil, we'll be bumping into eachother in the dark real soon.

-Ian
Portland

[dohboi]

Thank you both for your posts. OF, yes, I never exempted myself from the current lunacy. I buy my electricity through a wind program, but I know that it still contributes enormously to GW. Please don't assume that I hold myself above anyone.

I can be a smoker and still bemoan the role that smoking has played in the deaths of millions. I can be a poster, and still bemoan the role that our hightech communications system has played in destroying the planet.

It is about 0 degrees F outside of my house right now, and I would quickly be dead without the NG heat in my house.

But slave owners like many of the framers of the US constitution could still imagine and hope for a more just arrangement, even as they were taking advantage of those slaves. That does not make them perfect moral agents (and I don't claim to be one) but I don't think it completely invalidates their ideals, either.

Thanks IanC for your supporting comments. I don't claim to know what is or isn't a "ligitimate" use of the dwindling resources of the earth, except that maybe the discussion itself is worth a bit.

In what is probably a too-much-information mode of full disclosure, I am a sometime consumer of online porn. I don't consider this a "valid" use of the world's dwindling resources, but, there it is.

I think we all have our habits and addictions that we find difficult to extract ourselves from. I'm not blaming any one for theirs. I just want to have a conversation about it.

I really don't know the answer. I just think we have to talk about it to come to any kind of understanding.

OK. I'm off to consume some cyber porn ;=}

tata

[LoneSnark]

What, we have access to a crap load of power, so why not use it? Future generations will undoubtedly be richer and more technically capable than we are, so between the two of us they are more capable of living in a low power world than we are, so this arangement seems just to me. I know I don't begrudge my parents or grandparents all the coal and oil they burned through, why should our children and grandchildren be any different?

They probably won't even think to blame us as they will most likely blame OPEC or whoever happens to be President at the time.

[Nano]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'I') don't claim to know what is or isn't a "ligitimate" use of the dwindling resources of the earth, except that maybe the discussion itself is worth a bit.

[TheDude]

You are correct that our use of power in the BTU sense amounts to overkill these days. It's telling that we use the same word for our exomatic energy as we do for control over other people, and we know how addictive the latter is. The former will ultimately corrupt absolutely, too.

[Twilight]

We are still driven by animal instincts, and the goal is comfort. As a rule, we do not stop at survival or contentment unless constrained. Individuals can change themselves, but this does not scale to complex societies.

Then there is this:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oliver Wendell Holmes', '"')Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions"

[bodigami]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', '(')...)
In what is probably a too-much-information mode of full disclosure, I am a sometime consumer of online porn. I don't consider this a "valid" use of the world's dwindling resources, but, there it is.

I think we all have our habits and addictions that we find difficult to extract ourselves from. I'm not blaming any one for theirs. I just want to have a conversation about it.

I really don't know the answer. I just think we have to talk about it to come to any kind of understanding.

OK. I'm off to consume some cyber porn ;=}

tata

[bodigami]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Twilight', '(')...)Then there is this:$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oliver Wendell Holmes', '&')quot;Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions"

[seldom_seen]

Up in Alaska the other day, someone left the lid off a truck full of fish guts and carcasses from a seafood plant.

When the bald eagles saw this...it was party time!

Unfortunately it didn't work out too well for the eagles.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nother 20 eagles died Friday after dozens swarmed an uncovered truck full of fish waste outside a processing plant in Kodiak, Alaska.

The birds became too soiled to fly or clean themselves, and with temperatures in the midteens, began to succumb to the cold. Some birds became so weak they sank into the fish slime and were crushed.

[Iaato]

Ha. I don't want to take us off topic, but I would like to comment on those eagles, Seldom. There were 50 eagles in that gunk. All 50 were male. Either the females of the species were bright enough not to get a truckload of fish guts dumped on their heads, or else they were on a diet after Christmas.

adn.com

[vampyregirl]

Back in the 1890s Marcus Samuel, chairman of Shell said "In the future, oil will be not a source of illumination but a source of power." At the time he said that the most important byproduct of oil refining was kerosene which was most often burned as an illuminant. but Samuel saw fuel oil taking over from coal burning steam engines for ocean transport. Unrefined oil burned in ships boilers in place of coal. He was thinking of the shipping industry, he didn't seem to see the automobile industry exploding like it did.
During the nineteenth century king coal rose to his throne due to the invention of the steam engine. Coal was burned to produce the steam that powered factory machinery, enabling mass production on a scale never seen before. Coal fired the ovens in steel mills and factory boilers. Steam powered ships and locomotives allowed people and materials to be transported long distances faster than ever before. As a result worldwide economic growth exploded. The industrial revolution was on. All thanks to this awesome new source of power.
Marcus Samuel saw oil as the power of the future and within a few years was proven correct.
The internal combustion engine, pioneered in the late nineteenth century by German engineers would make the steam engine obsolete although that was not apparent when Samuel made his prediction. The first internal combustion engines were noisy and noxious and produced only modest power. but they would improve just as the steam engine improved leaps and bounds between the late 18th century when it was introduced to the mid 19th when it powered the industrial revolution into history.
With electricity produced on a large scale in the early 20th century the demand for kerosene was largely restricted to the countryside. But a new market was opening up. The automobile was merely a novelty then but it was catching on. Powered by an internal combustion engine that burned gasoline, once considered a worthless byproduct of kerosene refining, it enable people to travel wherever they wanted whenever they wanted and much faster than a horse and buggy. By the 1920s henri Deterding, first Chief Executive of royal Dutch Shell said we live in an age of travel. By then the automobile was not just a novelty, it was considered a life neccesity.
At the time the automobile was coming around the corner the Diesel engine was replacing the steam engine for ocean transport. it produced more power than steam and didn't require constant attention from the crew. it enabled ocean commerce to run faster.
Natural gas was neglected for many years. here in Canada it is very valuable because it provided a warmer heat than electric heat. In many countries it is used in the production of electrcity. And now it can be be made into Syndiesel fuel opening up a whole new market for it.
I guess my main point is that power enables high speed transport and communication which enables rapid economic growth. that is why it is needed.
As for natural gas i could go on and on about that but i think ill shut up now. ive gone on and on enough already

[LoneSnark]

seldom_seen, what is your point? That all us humans are going to be crushed to death in the Ghawar oil fields? Do I need to tell you that the oil wells are not wide enough for a full grown human to fall in?

The parable makes more sense if you compare it to Shoe Sale:

[psyop101]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'w')hat is power for?

[LoneSnark]

You don't have to, psyop. You chose to buy a computer and live in a house. In my home state there are thousands of acres of unused wilderness. If you want to, you can just drive into the mountains, abandon your car, and go live without all this extra energy. Anyone you can convince to go with you can keep you company. No taxes, no world wars, no babbling on the internet. Just you, nature, and the cold of winter.

I ask one thing though: please don't start a forest fire, the rest of society will find you if you do.

[onlooker]

Dug up another post. I am in posting mood.
My answer would be to enable us to venture into the stars. Yes some may say absurd. Perhaps but it seems we are destined to spoil our planet. So what can we do but venture off to find other suitable places to live. However, on introspection would it do us good if we were to continue our predatory and reckless ways of living? No, we would just mess up the next planet and so forth. So we need some soul-searching before we entertain grandiose plans or objectives.

[Pops]

I miss VampGirl, she said she had work in Brazil, wish she'd post again.

Humans I think might become a victim of our own success. It is our creativity in finding ever more efficient ways of doing stuff that got us to this point, hopefully we'll create a way to get us past it.