[Bas]

I had an interesting conversation tonite that went down to a philosophical interpretation of "pride".

I argued that pride in essence is something that you feel good about showing something off, which I thought and think is only really warranted when it comes to one's own achievements and maybe some when it comes to one's children.

I got as counter argument that pride is often a form of love; I'm proud of my wife was the argument. I didn't think it was a very strong argument but acknowledged that there is definately a border area there. However, I was mostly interested in this in a "national" sense, using America, Holland and nazi Germany as examples and pointing out that countries are just geographical areas in which you happen to be born and that pride in this sense is irrational while acknowledging that the love for that country (or area) that you know and has given you opportunities and freedoms is a natural thing.

ah, a bit of a rant, but I guess my Christmas messages to Americans on this board is:

Love your country but beware of pride.


Merry Christmas everybody


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')pride (prd)
n.
1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.
3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.
4.
a. A cause or source of pleasure or satisfaction; the best of a group or class: These soldiers were their country's pride.
b. The most successful or thriving condition; prime: the pride of youth.
5. An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.
6. Mettle or spirit in horses.
7. A company of lions. See Synonyms at flock1.
8. A flamboyant or impressive group: a pride of acrobats.

[Tanada]

1, 2 and 4a.

[Bas]

ah ok, I voted "love" to be able to see the results (the see results option seems to have been malfunctioning for a long time....)

Also, I forgot to say this, I feel love for my country and certain areas that I know best, but basically I'm not proud of my "country" or it's history. I love my freedoms here, and like I have said a couple of times before I'd defend my freedoms, and also the freedoms of other citizens before my country though they might be one and the same thing and sometimes the exact opposite.

[wisconsin_cur]

I can't separate myself, try as I my, from my love for the values of the revolution, as betrayed and forgotten as they have been.

Like any love we choose to emphasis certain things over the other to maintain that love. Not that there is not plenty to feel ashamed over or be outraged about.

Love is blind I guess. I love what was... what I hope can be again.

I am proud of those who continue to hold to those values that is america at the best. Those who persevere, innovate, and resist in a thousand symbolic but important ways. They are important because they are how we keep ourselves human. They are important because it is how we cling to the idea that individuals are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights...

...and not all of us sold those rights to the corporations, the 1.5 political parties, the talking heads, creditors or the Federal government.

[Bas]

good point. But you gotta love the freedoms America has given you. Maybe it's an easier thing to answer in a small geographic area like Holland though we have 16 million people here and it's all pretty much disconnecting in a metropolitan way...

Anyway, I think you do love your country overall, the land...maybe not the politics and certainly not now but....You have a lot to be grateful for in the sense that America gave you a lot of opportunities and freedoms.

Ultimately though, these "national" borders are senseless and morally indefensible.


Call me what you want. (not you Shanny; )

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'g')ood point. But you gotta love the freedoms America has given you. Maybe it's an easier thing to answer in a small geographic area like Holland though we have 16 million people here and it's all pretty much disconnecting in a metropolitan way...

Anyway, I think you do love your country overall, the land...maybe not the politics and certainly not now but....You have a lot to be grateful for in the sense that America gave you a lot of opportunities and freedoms.

Ultimately though, these "national" borders are senseless and morally indefensible.


Call me what you want. (not you Shanny; )

[Fishman]

Both, traveled to lots of countries, still kiss the ground (secretly) when I get back home.
Again you'll hear me, I guess rant, that the present restrictions on freedom are nothing compared to past situations, nothing compared to most countries.

[Bas]

The 7 deadly sins

#7 Pride

[Heineken]

I feel that nationalism is a major force for destruction, pain, and waste. It's highly unfortunate that humans organize themselves in this way politically.

[Bas]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I') feel that nationalism is a major force for destruction, pain, and waste. It's highly unfortunate that humans organize themselves in this way politically.

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Yeah, I am with you there - but I guess that I love and am proud of the people and their actions and values, but I don't see them as intrinsic to America the political entity. I probably am not saying this well... Crying or Very sad

[Heineken]

Here is what I feel about America: Sadness. Regret. Loss. Embarrassment. Outrage.

I feel that the values my dad fought for during WWII have been sold down the river---and sold cheap.

That pack of mercenary jackals on Capitol Hill and in the White House should be drawn and quartered. They are traitors, almost to the last man and woman. The few honest patriots among them (guys like Ron Paul, for instance) are drowned out.

The American experiment had its moment but now has failed. For a long time it has been failing, and now that process is complete. I am very doubtful that resurrection is possible.

[Bas]

I've found that I'm inclined to speak proud of this little country (of it's flood defenses in this case) when I didn't plan to, nor agree with it; I guess Holland is quite a nationalistic country and I was raised with that sense around me and it's hard to get rid of.

[Heineken]

I know what you're saying, Bas. I feel the same inconsistency in my feelings about my own country, as my two posts demonstrate. It's easy to understand the pull of nationalism---the desire to be part of something that is infinitely larger and more powerful than yourself.

This will sound terrible to other Americans, but I think I could achieve a sense of pride in a country I were to emigrate to. A smaller, gentler, less pretentious, less imperialistic place. Norway. Holland. Belize. Uruguay. Definitely Oesterreich, where I once lived.

I am proud of what America was, not what it has become. This is agony for me, but I have to be honest with myself. There are still things about America I love, but they too are fading with the spread of the suburban cancer and all it represents.

Many Americans are still lovable, but the government is now a full-fledged MONSTER (in all senses of that word). It's outta control. We've now had a virtual parade of administrations pledging to reduce the size of government, but it's bigger and more intrusive than ever.

[Bas]

for their sizes, I think Holland and also Norway (and other small western European nations) are quite pretentious unfortunately, probably more so than the US, France and the UK though I guess they are less (potentially) harmful to the international community.

And Americans are good people, at least equally so compared to any other nation. Mostly I think the political system is outdated though, and doesn't reflect the will of the people anymore, like you basically said.

Goodnite and.....just goodnite.

[Kingcoal]

I tried to vote both pride and love, but I got an error. This is my country, I was born here and I love it, there's no confusion in my heart about that. Admitting love and pride for your country doesn't mean that you are a patriotic robot. On the contrary, it means that you want to contribute and help make it a better place.

[Heineken]

I have heard many people say that the French tend to be stuck-up, and I've gotten that impression myself from time to time.

Reflecting back on my experiences in Europe, I'd have to agree with you that pretentiousness or arrogance is a characteristic of many Europeans.

I guess I was referring to government policy as opposed to individual human personalities. A government like Norway's isn't in a position to be too pushy or grand or conceited on the international stage. Unlike the US Empire.

Maybe if I were a Norwegian I'd be overweeningly proud too. Maybe they have reason to feel that way about themselves.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kingcoal', 'A')dmitting love and pride for your country doesn't mean that you are a patriotic robot. On the contrary, it means that you want to contribute and help make it a better place.

[efarmer]

Compliments on an excellent thread topic Bas! For me, I have a great love for my country inspired from the basic goodness I see in people around me and it is my experience in my country that this thread runs deep and is still intact, in spite of the onslaught of consumerism and other societal icings and toppings dangerous to our health. I assume that almost all regions or nations have this because it is a natural human tendency to wish to be a part of something larger than one's self. But as you allude, when a nation begins to think that this gives them the right to spill out of their own territory and impose their wills on others or to come to the decision that their culture is superior or of a higher priority and enjoys manifest destiny, well then it becomes a malignant form of nationalism that makes nations a cancer on other nations and indeed on themselves in the long run. Holding a mirror up for someone to see a part of themselves they may not wish to acknowledge is dangerous, but an act of true friendship and respect. But we all are human and even now I am holding back a juvenile tulip wisecrack to get even for the mirror trick...

[TheDude]

Heineken - when the US Balkanizes will you be proud to be a Virginian? I have a certain pride about Oregon, for all its faults. One thing I relate to about the state is its tradition (tongue-in-cheek) of xenophobia! Not that I don't have plenty of friends who moved here from elsewhere.

Voted "neither" but I certainly feel the pull. Kurt Vonnegut had a word for people who formed associations based on meaningless coincidences - granfalloon. One example I remember him using was people from the same US state. That doesn't mean much now but it may someday. People who were born on the same day, however...

I stopped mooning over the proud US after reading Zinn's Peoples' History of the United States. After realizing how our comforts and civil progresses were based on leisure afforded by cheap energy the whole thing seemed even less impressive - more like inevitable, actually.