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THE Panic-Don't Panic Thread (merged)

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.

Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 00:22:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'h')igh fructose corn syrup

HFCS

AKA: Poison

Yeah you could devote a whole thread to the negative health benefits of HFCS...


Has anyone done that yet? I ain't checking through them all. :)
Got Dharma?

Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby steam_cannon » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 01:06:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'h')igh fructose corn syrup

HFCS

AKA: Poison

Yeah you could devote a whole thread to the negative health benefits of HFCS...


Has anyone done that yet? I ain't checking through them all. :)
There are a few threads where posters mention Corn Syrup, but nothing exclusive...

Fattening up of America's children
http://peakoil.com/fortopic30451.html

Perfect diet anyone?
http://peakoil.com/fortopic27732.html

MSG at the root of the USA Obesity problem?
http://peakoil.com/fortopic27512.html

It's Official, America's Obesity Problem Is Now Hopeless
http://peakoil.com/fortopic22789.html

Aspartame...Dangerous?
http://peakoil.com/fortopic24996.html

The Canary is Dead - schools going BK
http://peakoil.com/fortopic36268.html+f ... corn+syrup
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby yeahbut » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 08:41:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', ' ')
And hey run all you want, you're not going to get more tryptophan in
your diet by running. Running/exercise will raise nerotransmiter levels,
but that won't help if underlying deficiencies are present.


I don't think you really took on board what I said was effective for my friend. She didn't do loads of running and exercise all the time to try and raise her neurotransmitter levels at all. She just responded(with a short burst of whatever exercise or movement she could manage depending on her circumstances) to the 'fight or flight' adrenalin rushes she received during a panic attack. This gave a physical 'out' to the panic she was feeling, and was highly effective in defusing the awful sensations. It was a very simple strategy, it worked for her and saved her from what was becoming a crippling condition.

So again, just to be quite clear. Not an exercise program. Not yoga. Just a physical response to the 'fight or flight' adrenalin surge at the time of a panic attack. It worked for my friend and I hope it will be of help to others.
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby steam_cannon » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 11:33:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', 'I') don't think you really took on board what I said was effective for
my friend. She didn't do loads of running and exercise all the time...
Right, a short burst of exercise raises GABA neurotransmitters and
on the distribution curve for severity of this illness I'm sure you can
expect this to be enough for some people to get by. However you
can also expect that many other people would need to do more
exercise then her or take other steps for treatment.

Do you get how stupid debating this is. Some diabetics can be
treated with diet alone. But many diabetics need insulin. You can't
generalize that dietary changes will work for all diabetics any more
then you can say exercise will work for all panic disorders.
Dietary changes alone don't help most diabetics and I doubt you
can expect exercise alone to help for even most panic disorders.

As I've said, it's something to try but it's not the only option and
I'm sure it's not the right option for all people, such as people
with dietary deficiencies.

It's the same for a person with mild anemia. An exercise program
will increase the oxygen carrying capacity of their blood, but only if
they get enough iron in their diet and if they have intestinal
parasites leaching blood, they will need even more iron and other
treatments. If they have a thyroid disorder causing the anemia,
exercise will help but it certainly isn't a solution to their root problem.

Exercise can help most things and is always recommended. But try
and think about underlying problems a little too.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', 'S')he just responded(with a short burst of whatever exercise or
movement she could manage depending on her circumstances) to
the 'fight or flight' adrenalin rushes she received during a panic
attack
. This gave a physical 'out' to the panic she was feeling,
and was highly effective in defusing the awful sensations. It was a
very simple strategy, it worked for her and saved her from what
was becoming a crippling condition.
Right and if you read the studies, panic attacks happen with
crashing GABA neurotransmitters. Exercise kicks that up and the
adrenalin response encourages exercise. Unless your friend has an
adrenal disorder, the problem goes back to neurotransmitter issues.

Running around, moving a bit, flapping your arms... All of that raises
GABA neurotransmitters back to normal, the root problem.
And personally, I think eating some turkey making other regular
changes might be less trouble then worrying I might have to
flap my arms at random times of the day.
But hey, to each his own.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll emphasize this point:
I think what you are recommending is great.
I just disagree with you that it's a cure all.
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby yeahbut » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 15:04:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '[')b]I think what you are recommending is great.
That's good to hear, I didn't gain that impression from the tone of your initial response but I probably missed something or took it out of context.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', 'I') just disagree with you that it's a cure all.


At no point have I claimed that the strategy my friend used to get rid of her panic attacks was a cure all. I related the story because I hoped it might be helpful to someone. Possibly you are referring to where I said someone might want to try movement before their doctor got them on an SSRI? I still think that's a good idea. As you have made clear, there are quite a few options, none of which my friend's doctor suggested to her. I still think it was wrong of the doctor not to discuss these options and head straight to the meds.
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 17:33:10

I would really like it if doctors addressed diet and exercise in addition to prescribing drugs. My psychiatrist did nothing with me in regards diet and exercise, whereas my GP (who is now my only physician) has worked with me closely in regards making sure I'm taking the minimum medication and doing as much as I can with diet and (especially) exercise. I would also like it if psychiatrists would work more with cognitive behavioral therapy. I had to look into this myself, my psychiatrist didn't say anything about it, just basically "here, take these pills."

I'm sure there are better and worse psychiatrists out there, but, from my limited experience, they tend to like to concentrate on medications, when so many other avenues are available as well.
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 17:42:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') would really like it if doctors addressed diet and exercise in addition to prescribing drugs. My psychiatrist did nothing with me in regards diet and exercise, whereas my GP (who is now my only physician) has worked with me closely in regards making sure I'm taking the minimum medication and doing as much as I can with diet and (especially) exercise. I would also like it if psychiatrists would work more with cognitive behavioral therapy. I had to look into this myself, my psychiatrist didn't say anything about it, just basically "here, take these pills."

I'm sure there are better and worse psychiatrists out there, but, from my limited experience, they tend to like to concentrate on medications, when so many other avenues are available as well.


Great job, if you can get it. Nodding sympathetically and writing prescriptions, and getting $100.00 plus an hour to do it. :x
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby steam_cannon » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 20:18:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '[')b]I think what you are recommending is great.
That's good to hear, I didn't gain that impression from the tone of
your initial response but I probably missed something or took it out of context.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', 'I') just disagree with you that it's a cure all.
At no point have I claimed that the strategy my friend used to get
rid of her panic attacks was a cure all.
Alright, I'll just say this. We both come on very strongly with our opinions,
but we fleshed a lot of good things out. So I hope, alls well that ends well...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', 'I') related the story because I hoped it might be helpful to someone.
Possibly you are referring to where I said someone might want to
try movement before their doctor got them on an SSRI? I still think
that's a good idea. As you have made clear, there are quite a
few options, none of which my friend's doctor suggested to her. I
still think it was wrong of the doctor not to discuss these options
and head straight to the meds.
There's a damn lot wrong with American medicine. Open a thread
on that and I bet it would quickly turn into a 20+ page monster...
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby yeahbut » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 21:25:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', 'A')lright, I'll just say this. We both come on very strongly with our opinions,
but we fleshed a lot of good things out. So I hope, alls well that ends well...


Very much agreed, sc.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', 'T')here's a damn lot wrong with American medicine. Open a thread
on that and I bet it would quickly turn into a 20+ page monster...


Agreed again. I'm in NZ, and altho they're very different, I think our medical systems might have some of the same flaws- ie I believe we are the only developed nations that are allowed to advertise prescription drugs directly to the consumer...anyway all the best from NZ.
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby WildRose » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 21:54:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ') My psychiatrist did nothing with me in regards diet and exercise, whereas my GP (who is now my only physician) has worked with me closely in regards making sure I'm taking the minimum medication and doing as much as I can with diet and (especially) exercise.


I have found my GP to be very helpful in this way also. She is not quick to prescribe medications and always looks for practical, healthy changes to lifestyle, diet, etc. to treat a problem before turning to meds. I really value the exchange I have with her.

I was watching a program on TV the other day about how GP's are now having to be more informed about herbal remedies and homeopathic practices, as well as lifestyle changes, because so many of their patients are looking for alternatives to traditional "western" medicine. Also, physicians need to be aware of possible interactions between traditional meds and the other remedies their patients use.
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby WildRose » Sun 23 Mar 2008, 03:47:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yeahbut', '
')At no point have I claimed that the strategy my friend used to get rid of her panic attacks was a cure all. I related the story because I hoped it might be helpful to someone.


I just wanted to say that I can see why the technique your friend used would be effective, it's basically a distraction from the feelings of panic, correct? When the person was feeling the distress from an acute panic attack, he or she would have an "out", which you described as a physical action, which would distract the person from the symptoms of panic, probably by breaking the feedback loop or cycle that compounds the panicky feelings.
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby yeahbut » Sun 23 Mar 2008, 18:04:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', 'I') just wanted to say that I can see why the technique your friend used would be effective, it's basically a distraction from the feelings of panic, correct? When the person was feeling the distress from an acute panic attack, he or she would have an "out", which you described as a physical action, which would distract the person from the symptoms of panic, probably by breaking the feedback loop or cycle that compounds the panicky feelings.


Yes, that seemed to be how it worked for her. That, combined with talking about it and having what was happening explained, so that she didn't think she was losing her mind anymore, really worked for her. The physical movement relieved the horrible feelings and thoughts, and understanding that she was having a panic attack, not going crazy, stopped her from making the cycle worse thru fear. Basically she felt in control of the problem, that she knew what to do if it happened. And quite quickly, that seemed to stop it from happening at all. I realise this is just one person, and therefore falls into the dreaded category of 'anecdote', but it was certainly fascinating to witness how quickly my friend was able to get control of something that had been taking over her life.
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby threadbear » Sun 23 Mar 2008, 18:48:32

"Studies have shown that people who are prone to panic attacks have higher blood levels of lactic acid, a chemical produced when muscles metabolize sugar without enough oxygen. Other research suggests that anxiety may be the result of an overproduction of stress hormones by the brain and adrenal glands."

http://www.rd.com/1007/article.html

If panic attacks are related to higher levels of lactic acid, reducing that level would be pretty easy, by adjusting diet, and for a quick fix, mixing a half teaspoon of baking soda into a glass of water and chugging it. I don't know about regular use of baking soda, as it might be hard on the kidneys, but for once in a while, it probably wouldn't hurt.

From Panic site:

Inducing panic. panic attacks can be created by a chemical agent. patients who have a history of panic attacks are hooked up to an intravenous line. Sodium lactate, a chemical that normally produces rapid, shallow breathing and heart palpitation, is slowly infused into their bloodstream. Within minutes, about 60 to 90 percent of these patients have a panic attack. Normal controls, subjects with no history of panic, rarely have attacks when infused with lactate.

http://lovehopepeace.proboards80.com/in ... 778&page=1

One of the most common unrecognized food allergies is dairy products. It is well known that many people are lactose intolerant; it is also a fact that lots of people unknowingly have milk and dairy allergies. A simple way to check for a dairy allergy is to refrain from drinking milk or eating dairy products for at least two weeks, and noticed the effect this has on both your body and your state of mind.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Stop-Panic-At ... id=1039989
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby steam_cannon » Sun 23 Mar 2008, 22:30:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'S')tudies have shown that people who are prone to panic attacks have
higher blood levels of lactic acid, a chemical produced when muscles
metabolize sugar without enough oxygen.
Interesting, that kind of goes along with the higher CO2 sensitivity
noted in another study.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I')f panic attacks are related to higher levels of lactic acid, reducing
that level would be pretty easy, by adjusting diet, and for a quick
fix, mixing a half teaspoon of baking soda into a glass of water and
chugging it. I don't know about regular use of baking soda, as it
might be hard on the kidneys, but for once in a while, it probably
wouldn't hurt.
I'd say if at some point in the chain lactic acid is involved, a little bit
of baking soda might help. And it would certainly be easy to test.
Just have a baking soda tonic 20 minutes before a speech or stressful
workday and see what the results are.

Regarding regular use, at the maximum dose 2 weeks at a time.
Lower doses may be fine over longer periods may be fine.
The main concern in my mind, stomach acid serves a useful purpose.
People normally do alright taking antacids, but it does up your
risk for stomach problems/infections. But as I said, people normally
take antacids without too many problems, so it shouldn't be a big deal.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Details from the box of Arm & Hammer Pure Baking Soda:

**Amount in a serving of baked food.

Uses
Relieves:
*heartburn *
*acid indigestion
* sour stomach
* upset stomach due to these symptoms

STOMACH WARNING: TO AVOID SERIOUS INJURY, DO NOT TAKE
UNTIL POWDER IS COMPLETELY DISSOLVED. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT
NOT TO TAKE THIS PRODUCT WHEN OVERLY FULL FROM FOOD OR
DRINK. Consult a doctor if severe stomach pain occurs after taking this product.

Stop use and ask a doctor if symptoms last more than 2 weeks.

Directions:
add 1/2 teaspoon to 1/2 glass of water every 2 hours or as directed
by physician. Dissolve completely in water. Accurately measure 1/2 teaspoon.

Do not take more than the following amounts in 24 hours:

Seven 1/2 teaspoons
Three 1/2 teaspoons if you are over 60 years

Do not use the maximum dosage for more than 2 weeks.

http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/baking_soda.html
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 24 Mar 2008, 15:32:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'S')tudies have shown that people who are prone to panic attacks have
higher blood levels of lactic acid, a chemical produced when muscles
metabolize sugar without enough oxygen.
Interesting, that kind of goes along with the higher CO2 sensitivity
noted in another study.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I')f panic attacks are related to higher levels of lactic acid, reducing
that level would be pretty easy, by adjusting diet, and for a quick
fix, mixing a half teaspoon of baking soda into a glass of water and
chugging it. I don't know about regular use of baking soda, as it
might be hard on the kidneys, but for once in a while, it probably
wouldn't hurt.
I'd say if at some point in the chain lactic acid is involved, a little bit
of baking soda might help. And it would certainly be easy to test.
Just have a baking soda tonic 20 minutes before a speech or stressful
workday and see what the results are.

Regarding regular use, at the maximum dose 2 weeks at a time.
Lower doses may be fine over longer periods may be fine.
The main concern in my mind, stomach acid serves a useful purpose.
People normally do alright taking antacids, but it does up your
risk for stomach problems/infections. But as I said, people normally
take antacids without too many problems, so it shouldn't be a big deal.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Details from the box of Arm & Hammer Pure Baking Soda:

**Amount in a serving of baked food.

Uses
Relieves:
*heartburn *
*acid indigestion
* sour stomach
* upset stomach due to these symptoms

STOMACH WARNING: TO AVOID SERIOUS INJURY, DO NOT TAKE
UNTIL POWDER IS COMPLETELY DISSOLVED. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT
NOT TO TAKE THIS PRODUCT WHEN OVERLY FULL FROM FOOD OR
DRINK. Consult a doctor if severe stomach pain occurs after taking this product.

Stop use and ask a doctor if symptoms last more than 2 weeks.

Directions:
add 1/2 teaspoon to 1/2 glass of water every 2 hours or as directed
by physician. Dissolve completely in water. Accurately measure 1/2 teaspoon.

Do not take more than the following amounts in 24 hours:

Seven 1/2 teaspoons
Three 1/2 teaspoons if you are over 60 years

Do not use the maximum dosage for more than 2 weeks.

http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/baking_soda.html


ohmygod, no...don't be having baking soda and water 20 minutes before giving a speech. When the acid neutralizes, it creates a lot of gas. Unless your speech is about cow farts effects on global warming and you want to provide sound effects, I'd take that baking soda a few hours before a speech! :lol:
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby steam_cannon » Mon 24 Mar 2008, 16:38:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'o')hmygod, no...don't be having baking soda and water 20 minutes
before giving a speech. When the acid neutralizes, it creates a lot of
gas. Unless your speech is about cow farts effects on global warming
and you want to provide sound effects, I'd take that baking soda a
few hours before a speech! :lol:
But it would be so funny! :lol:

Seriously though, baking soda has never given me gas (or burping) so I didn't
know that. But I should have mentioned that I was thinking it could
cause gas if taken with food. So perhaps what we can learn here,
as with trying anything new, try it on the weekend and not during
the board meeting.
Because if you think you have stress now,
just wait until the gas starts coming!
(Well I tried to take this seriously...)

Niacin is another thing not to try at work, it causes flushing of the
skin. Like this person...
Image
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby steam_cannon » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 14:18:44

Panic Attacks and Aspartame

Hey people, here's something I was thinking about...

I mentioned earlier how crashing GABA neurotransmiter levels have
been implicated as a part of the panic attack process. And I came
across a recent study about aspartame knocking down GABA
production. So I'm thinking it might be a good idea for people with
a history of panic disorders to avoid aspartame.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Review raises questions over aspartame and brain health
http://www.foodqualitynews.com/news/ng. ... -sweetener

The review, by scientists from the University of Pretoria and the
University of Limpopo and published recently in the European
Journal of Clinical Nutrition, indicated that high consumption of the
sweetener may lead to neurodegeneration...

The researchers added: "The energy systems for certain required
enzyme reactions become compromised, thus indirectly leading to
the inability of enzymes to function optimally.

"The ATP stores [adenosine triphosphate] in the cells are depleted,
indicating that low concentrations of glucose are present in the
cells, and this in turn will indirectly decrease the synthesis of
acetylcholine, glutamate and GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid)."

Source: European Journal of Clinical Nutrition
2008, doi: 10.1038/sj.ejcn.1602866
"Direct and indirect cellular effects of aspartame on the brain"
Authors: P. Humphries, E. Pretorius, H. Naude

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'c')alming, mood-enhancing brain
chemical called GABA – levels of which have been found to drop
during an attack
(Goddard AW et al. Am J Psychiatr 2004, 161(12):2186-2193).

http://www.thehealthierlife.co.uk/artic ... tacks.html


A few related articles

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')oxicity Effects of Aspartame Use and the usage can cause panic attacks
http://www.anxietypanic.com/aspartame.html

Aspartame Poisoning: Another Cause of Anxiety/Panic Disorder
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/pan ... rder/11665

Aspartame - Anxiety, Depression
http://www.rense.com/general49/susu.htm

Aspartame Can Mess Up Your Body and Brain
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-4-8/68870.html

The U.S. Air Force has formally warned all pilots to abstain from
consuming Diet Drinks in their official Flying Safety publication (May & August 1992.)
http://www.rense.com/health/aspertame.htm

So besides my thoughts, it seems other people have come to the
conclusion that aspartame may be a cause of or worsen panic
attack attacks. May be right, may not, just something to keep in mind.
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby threadbear » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 14:47:16

Hi Steam Cannon, I thought for years that I would never be able to diet again, as the last time I lost 20 lbs, I was a complete nervous wreck. I mean, teeth grinding, anxiety, visual disturbances..the whole 9 yards. As soon as I quit dieting, I was fine. I thought it was because I gained back a few pounds

. Flash forward-- Last year I started getting the same reactions, but my weight was stable, and I wasn't dieting. I was really upset, as I couldn't for the life of me, figure out what was causing it. I went through everything I was eating, particularly anything new, and the only thing that stood out was low fat sugar free yogurt, with nutrasweet, or aspartame.

So I did a google search and was astonished to discover the link between aspartame and anxiety. I quit the yoghurt immediately and was fine. I realized at that time that the reason I was such a wreck, last time I lost a lot of weight, was more likely caused by aspartame, than weight loss, itself.

So thanks for providing that info.
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby welshgreen » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 15:13:57

nope never had a panic attack although some days I fell pretty depressed when thinking about the future.
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Re: Panic Attacks and POers

Unread postby steam_cannon » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 15:36:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'S')o thanks for providing that info.
Just something that clicked as I was reading...

By the way, I figured out I didn't like aspartame quite a while back.
And I explained it to my parents as a kid, I didn't want the "sugar free"
popsicles as I would get a headache every day I had one. And with me
it's pretty easy to pick out too, because that's the only time I ever get
headaches. The junk can still give me a headache, nasty stuff.
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