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THE Mutant Zombie Hordes Thread pt 2 (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby Peepers » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 15:43:34

I suspect the law-abiding citizens wil roam in order to stay fed. The criminals will stay put and organize gangs to control territories.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby nobodypanic » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 16:22:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'i') nominate this post as the most naive of this month. Any objections?


You can nominate all you want, and perhaps you visualize something different; or haven't tried walking cross-country in real rural areas....

Rural areas will be hideous death traps for the starving masses. Combination of factors make this so:

1.) physical strain on unprepared people trying to travel substantial distance on foot.

2.) lack of available water to support any significant concentration of roving masses.

3.) tendency of rural inhabitants to shoot people for the fun of it.

4.) tendency of local rural enforcement to not give a darn about the shootees, as long as the corpse isn't left in the road.

50 miles out from their starting point, these roving masses will be physically crippled, desperate, stupid, disorganized, unarmored... and loud...

They will not be some disciplined, armored, well supplied, well fed and watered army. They will not be carrying adequate supplies to sustain themselves, nor engage in any sort of generally successful campaign of force.

In short.. they are the walking dead....ie, zombies. Fertilizer.

you mean to tell me there is little to zero chance of small[er] organized, well armed units moving about? what, no chance ex cops, swat team members, awol military etc. roaming about trying to save themselves and their family? no chance of local warlords springing up and systematically looting and foraging?

perhaps, and i am not saying this is right on, but just perhaps mobility will actually be a far better strategy than hunkering down.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby SoylentGreen » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 16:52:16

Most will stay put until thier food runs out.The ones who run out of food 1st with firepower will snipe & assualt the ones with remaining food stores.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby vetusfirma » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 17:22:11

My Grandmother told me stories of farmers and town folk banding together to burn out the hobo jungles every year during the depression. Now those were bad times, but only about 25% unemployment. What we are in store for will be worse, and the problems on both sides of this issue will be worst. Don't think violence won't occur on both sides.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby Pretorian » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 17:52:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Peepers', 'I') suspect the law-abiding citizens wil roam in order to stay fed. The criminals will stay put and organize gangs to control territories.


I guess the criminals won't be criminals in this case. They will be a local law-issuing authority, just like the one we have now . I can see already children pledging allegiance to them in improvised schools and singing patriotic songs about their village .
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby allenwrench » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 09:24:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '
')There are people who live in the 3rd world on $300/month in densely populated cities. If they can afford to eat food sent in 3,000 miles away


Transport aside, how will packing people together like sardine cans surmount the problem of growing enough food for them when we're only able to do that now because of fossil-fuel-derived fertilizers? I just think there will be shortage of food regardless of where people live, 5000 mile diet or 1 mile diet. Truly sustainable agricultural practices will necessitate a smaller population.


Agreed.

We have built our society on steroids called crude oil. We could not have built it without crude. Something has to give if our steroids dry up.

We got other problems right in line with peak oil. We got peak water, peak food, peak uranium and peak NG to name a few.

. Do you know that much of your life is dependent on natural gas outside its use as an energy source?

We will run out of natural gas, just as we deplete our crude supplies in the near future.

http://www.amazon.com/High-Noon-Natural ... 1931498539

Natural gas is a raw material in many of our products we depend on.

Almost all the helium we produce comes from natural gas.

Propane, synthetic fertilizers, ammonia?

They are totally dependent on natural gas.

Our population boom was fueled by synthetic fertilizers made from natural; gas. Once the gas dries up so does the fertilizer and a shortage of fertilizer equals a shortage of food.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby allenwrench » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 09:47:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '
')Of course we'll have a smaller population!
But that doesn't mean we can't have big cities right? Even if the world population drops to only 1 billion why can't we have a couple mega-cities of 7million++ New York, London, Moscow, Tokyo?


I just don't see how 5/6th of the world's population can die off rapidly without having enough of a ripple effect on the world to cause WWIII. I just don't see how you can sandbox a die-off of that magnitude in such a way that the major 1st world cities just kind of coast through it by virtue of their wealth-advantage.



No doubt there will be more than ripples.

Will it come to canniablism..neighbor eating neighbor?

Or for those who don't like to kill, neighbor eating deceased neighbor who starved to death? (If much is left to pick from.)
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby sittinguy » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 10:07:55

OK,, I have a question?? What makes some of you think that rural people will do worse than big city people? At least in the rural we have some room and maybe a few resources, like lakes, woods, trees, small game.

All the people in the city with limited resources seems to me that will be a powder keg of violence.

Please answer
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby allenwrench » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 10:11:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'a')d hominen snippage


Nice.

re: content...

You want to believe the zombies will rule rural america... Great. I suppose it makes a nice fantasy; but in general, the terrain and elements will kill most, any that are violently inclined will be mopped up easily enough as they do stupid things that get them shot.

I suppose its possible you live in a very peaceful and placid region.... I dunno. Hope it stays that way for you.



Although I do not like to use the word zombies for humans, there is a reason that most zombies become zombies. They did not see what was coming or did or could not prepare for it. I don't see zombies ruling.

Now some of the zombies may have prepared, but for one reason or another lost their work through fire, flood etc.

Other people, the city dwellers, may have good foresight of what is to come, but did not have the resources to relocate and could not plant their crops in concrete.

But for the most part zombies are zombies because of ignorance, so they would most likely carry this ignorance with them as they wander. We can see this time and again with criminals. Many times they do stupid things and get caught...there is a reason why they are criminals.
Last edited by allenwrench on Fri 20 Jun 2008, 10:12:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 10:12:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sittinguy', 'O')K,, I have a question?? What makes some of you think that rural people will do worse than big city people?


Many (most?) rural people will do no better than city people, because they are as dependent on the system for their living. Most rural people buy their food from the store like anyone else. Only the tiny minority provide for all their needs from the local area.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 10:16:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sittinguy', 'O')K,, I have a question?? What makes some of you think that rural people will do worse than big city people?


Many (most?) rural people will do no better than city people, because they are as dependent on the system for their living. Most rural people buy their food from the store like anyone else. Only the tiny minority provide for all their needs from the local area.


and they get their heat delivered in the form of LP or if they heat with wood they use a chainsaw which needs gas and some maintence and if they try to rely on game, so is everyone else which means that game will only last so long, even here in WI were we are choking on deer... everyone hunts deer... someone runs out of deer.

All that being said, I live in a rural area, I have decided to make my stand in a rural area, I think the job can be done in a rural area... the problem is very few people in rural areas (just like urban areas) are doing the work necessary to prepare, even in rural areas.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby allenwrench » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 10:26:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('skyemoor', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'M')ost in rural areas are not engaging in paramilitary fantasies.


This keeps popping up in your comments, and I have no idea where it is coming from.

I do not engage in paramilitary anything. Sorry.


What I believe wisconsin_cur is saying is that while you are not saying it in so many terms, you are strongly implying it. I can see his point, though perhaps you are conceptualizing different terms and approaches in your head. Indeed, many in rural areas have varmint or deer rifles, and may feel the need to use them if they feel their life (or their family's) threatened. But your characterization of their behavior bespeaks of paramilitary fantasy, and it is right for wisconsin_cur to point this out. This is not a paramilitary site, and our Code of Conduct strictly precludes encouragement of illegal activities, such as suggesting that 'shooting up zombies' is to be considered standard operating procedure. You didn't quite cross that line, but I want to remind you and other readers of this forum's policies so that we don't have to remove over-the-top posts (which we will).




I commend you on your post skyemoor.

This is what separates the PO forum the LATOC forum

On the LATOC forum (although I was only there for a few hours before was I banned - so do not know it is has changed.) the owner does not try to correct wrong speech with right speech.

I recall how in one discussion a member wrote how his limited amount of ammunition would help him get more, implying stealing / killing others to steal supplies.

There was no correction from the moderators or owners about such a proposal.

Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.

– Frank Outlaw
Last edited by allenwrench on Fri 20 Jun 2008, 10:41:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby allenwrench » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 10:35:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sittinguy', 'O')K,, I have a question?? What makes some of you think that rural people will do worse than big city people? At least in the rural we have some room and maybe a few resources, like lakes, woods, trees, small game.

All the people in the city with limited resources seems to me that will be a powder keg of violence.

Please answer



Just depends on many what if's?

Rural people lack society and they will do worse than city dwellers if they need something from society since they are separated from it.

But rural people will do better if the society that they are separated from starts to self-destruct.

Many of the folks in rural areas will be stuck there if they are short on transport fuel. You have to be VERY self sufficient as the track to town will be a long one.

I will say many rural people impress me with their self sufficiency skills - They can do many things. Where most city dwellers lack many of these skills.

For me, I'd rather be somewhat rural than live in a concrete jungle. Just not too rural where the closest town is 20 miles away.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby biofuel13 » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 10:47:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', ' ').....if they try to rely on game, so is everyone else which means that game will only last so long, even here in WI were we are choking on deer... everyone hunts deer... someone runs out of deer.


I'm from the northwoods of WI originally as well.....just looked at the deer census info for WI for 2007.....it was/is over 1,200,000. That's alot of meat! The estimated population of WI is about 5.5 million people. When you factor out the young, old, and inexperienced/illequiped to hunt I think it leaves more than enough deer to go around for the rest of us. I only plan on taking the occasional deer to supplement the rabbits, squirrels, beaver, porcupine, pheasant, duck and grouse etc. that will be my main staples.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby gnm » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 11:30:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('allenwrench', 'R')ural people lack society and they will do worse than city dwellers if they need something from society since they are separated from it.


I disagree with this statement - having lived urban,suburban, and now rural. Suburbia was the worst - most people didn't even know their neighbors - often if they did know them they disliked them. I saw no "society". Urban was a little better.
But now I know nearly everyone in the valley. There are about 120 people and we recognize each others vehicles, meet and discuss problems in the valley, hold a BBQ and trash cleanup, assist each other with well problems and the like. Its much more of a "society"

other than that I agree with a lot of what you said.

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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby CarlinsDarlin » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 12:11:26

I have to agree with you gnm. i have lived in rural areas, medium sized towns and large cities. Rural communities are much more close knit.

I lived in Houston, TX for about three years. I lived in a large apartment complex. The only people I knew well were the people I worked with and a few choice other friends. I couldn't tell you the name of one of my neighbors in the apartment complex.

Where I live now is a rural community. I live on a "loop" that is a bit more than five miles around. I can tell you who lives in almost every house on that loop. I know people from my community, my church, people in town, people who I see regularly in the grocery store... you name it. Rural communities and small towns are certainly more "social" than any other place I have lived. It's a rare event when I don't recognize a vehicle driving by my home.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 12:17:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('biofuel13', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', ' ').....if they try to rely on game, so is everyone else which means that game will only last so long, even here in WI were we are choking on deer... everyone hunts deer... someone runs out of deer.


I'm from the northwoods of WI originally as well.....just looked at the deer census info for WI for 2007.....it was/is over 1,200,000. That's alot of meat! The estimated population of WI is about 5.5 million people. When you factor out the young, old, and inexperienced/illequiped to hunt I think it leaves more than enough deer to go around for the rest of us. I only plan on taking the occasional deer to supplement the rabbits, squirrels, beaver, porcupine, pheasant, duck and grouse etc. that will be my main staples.


I plan on feeding my young. My wife is inexperienced, I plan on feeding her too. If granny were to show up on my front stoop, i would feed her also.

Do most people who can kill a deer have the means to preserve it without a freezer? Sounds like a lot of wasted meat.

And if they run out of deer in one area (say south of Wausau) then it does the people south of Wausau little good if there are still 500k deer left.

Wild game is not a plan.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 12:24:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', ' ')rural America is a nightmare deathtrap.


Of course it is also a "death trap" for many who already live there to... of course many of them are liable to go to the city looking for a hand out long before the people in the city come out.

There is not enough wild game to go around. Up here we need heat and most of those who have wood are still in need of electric to make that work (outdoor boilers). Most do not know how to make corn into food... even if they could most of the seed is hybrid... I really made our local guy jump through hoops to find me some OP seed.

No fuel deliveries, no hay, no way to keep animals alive through the winter. Yeah we are so much better off than those in the city :roll:


Learn to be a vegetarian.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby AgentR » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 12:30:01

I wonder about freezers sometimes... Self-sufficiency arguments aside, when we start making REAL choices about what to use hyper-expensive electricity on; the chest freezer seems to me to be pretty high on the value vs cost comparison. It'd be the last thing I would choose to do without.

Not that you can't preserve food in other ways, but freezing, for all its faults, gives the best results.

I really need to learn how to go from corn on the stalk to cornmeal in a box though.. without making people think I'm crazy that is. :roll:
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And so shall we remain; Until the end.
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Re: Will starving masses roam or stay put?

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 20 Jun 2008, 12:31:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('allenwrench', '
')For me, I'd rather be somewhat rural than live in a concrete jungle. Just not too rural where the closest town is 20 miles away.


Which is as good an endorsements of a "Suburbs 2.0" as any.
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