[thuja]

Sure conservation is possible- its called a massive sustained Depression. We'll all be conserving baby- whether we like it or not.

[Revi]

Conservation and efficiency save my household $2250 per year. Every year we save that amount. It has emboldened me to buy a new fuel efficient vehicle. The money we saved has allowed us to put on solar hot water panels to capture sunlight that we didn't have access to before.

The guys who came to put them on started with 1 truck a few years ago. Now they are up to 7 trucks and 14 guys working. They are exploiting a "new" energy source, but they are growing, and the local economy is benefitting. The money is staying local. These guys have families and are probably buying cars, heating houses, etc. I guess I am proposing a new way of switching energy sources. Efficiency and conservation allow more people to live an adequate life, and probably add up to more energy used, but some of it comes from an unexploited source, the sun. What's the matter with that?

[Aaron]

IBID

[thuja]

Well Revi- from your vantage point, and the vantage point of the folks starting this new industry, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing. In fact, it makes complete sense and I would encourage it.

But from a macroeconomic viewpoint, your conservation efforts are simply shifting the chits on the table. You may be "conserving" by using less apparent fossil fuels, but you are using fossil fuels in the form of the production materials neccessary to produce solar panels, fuels for distribution, etc.

And from a larger persepctive, if your efforts really pay off and do conserve fossil fuels, and your neighbors and larger community do the same, then there will be more supply of fossil fuels on the market. This in turn will make fossil fuels cheaper (due to the glut) and some community somewhere else will take advantage of the cheap price of fossil fuels.

So on a larger level, you are making no difference whatsoever and in fact may be causing the unintended consequence of spurring excessive consumption elsewhere. That means that on a larger scale, your choices and your community's "Green" choices to conserve may actually have the adverse effect of causing more consumption.

But...the question becomes- so what should you do? Throw up your hands and stop conserving. Hell no- because you are seeing an immediate visible economic effect for yourself. You are also trying to reduce your footprint and live a life with less fossil fuels- knowing they will become scarce and exhorbitant in price soon.

An example would be- your whole community is addicted to cocaine. But if your community makes a concerted effort to stop snorting cocaine, the price of coke will plummet and some poor fools down the road will take advantage of the cheaper price and snort a lot more coke. Is that your fault? No.

So keep on conserving...its the right thing to do. But don't imagine you are making any dent on the fossil fuel energy crisis. You may be making it worse.

[grabby]

Besides the famous paradox, Jevon found that business cycles related to sunspot activity.

Jevons asserted that crises in the economy occurred in cycles, instead of at random intervals. Also, he stated that there seemed to be an association between business cycles and sunspots. His reasoning was that sunspots affected the weather on earth, which, in turn, affected crops. These changes in crops resulted in economic changes. -wiki

Just interesting.

[Newsseeker]

Efficiency Policy, Jevon’s Paradox, and the “Shadow” Rebound Effect

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')s the push for greater energy efficiency a good policy choice to address energy scarcity after Peak Oil? Here’s a bold answer: NO, at least not in a vacuum. Efficiency is not a standalone solution, but part of the much more complex problem of reducing total energy consumption that must address Jevon’s Paradox and the Rebound Effect.

[joewp]

This is why it's not worth conserving for a higher purpose, even for environmental reasons. About the only reason left to conserve is to accustom yourself to a low energy future.

[steam_cannon]

Yeah, I've heard this argument before. If you make the system more efficient there will be freed up resources for making more people...

Population is the real problem and challenge. In the future, if we can maintain our current population, create a smaller future population, and avoid rounds of mass starvation... Well, that would be an amazing accomplishment by humanity. More likely one of the four horsemen will lead in this task.

[Pablo2079]

Another reason to conserve is to save money.

[BlisteredWhippet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pablo2079', 'A')nother reason to conserve is to save money.

[Ludi]

A reason to conserve is to live within the ability of the local ecosystem to provide, and to reduce the need to earn. This is different from "saving money" as it reduces one's dependence on the current economic system.


We need a basic understanding of ecology, and societal values which reflect that understanding. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

[sameu]

you could use the saved money to buy non-material non-oily stuff like information, certain services, eerm designer clothing instead of the regular stuff

[Loki]

The guy can't even spell Jevons. Why should I listen to anything he says about something he can't even spell? I stopped reading after the title.

[tsakach]

Does Jevons Paradox apply to off-grid energy production and consumption, where the energy savings cannot be redistributed elsewhere?

[joewp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tsakach', 'D')oes Jevons Paradox apply to off-grid energy production and consumption, where the energy savings cannot be redistributed elsewhere?

[tsakach]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joewp', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tsakach', 'D')oes Jevons Paradox apply to off-grid energy production and consumption, where the energy savings cannot be redistributed elsewhere?

[Newsseeker]

The author wants programs without the rebound. Given Jevons Paradox for the life of me I can't think of any. Can you?

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newsseeker', 'T')he author wants programs without the rebound. Given Jevons Paradox for the life of me I can't think of any. Can you?

[joewp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newsseeker', 'T')he author wants programs without the rebound. Given Jevons Paradox for the life of me I can't think of any. Can you?

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joewp', 'A')ctually, you spell it wrong too. It's Jevons' Paradox.