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THE International Energy Agency (IEA) Thread pt 2 (merged) A

Discuss research and forecasts regarding hydrocarbon depletion.

Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby copious.abundance » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 01:07:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilFinder2', ' ')I'm afraid you aren't looking at the whole picture:


Ah, that's one thing you cannot accuse me of. :roll: My track record speaks for itself.

That's a funny one! :-D
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
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http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 01:10:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilFinder2', ' ') [By denying that demand destruction exists (or that's its negligible) you're assuming there is no price wall. The only wall you acknowledge is a production wall.


At the moment, there is no alternative to gasoline, diesel, or jet fuel, just like there is no alternative to air or water.

We cannot live without them. We won't even try.

There is no price wall short of collapse.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 01:13:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilFinder2', 'T')hat's a funny one! :-D


Ever read The Big Picture or Solutions in Isolation or Peakoil: Tip of the Iceberg?

Embracing the big picture has been one of my mantras for almost 4 years.
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby copious.abundance » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 01:18:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilFinder2', 'B')y denying that demand destruction exists (or that's its negligible) you're assuming there is no price wall. The only wall you acknowledge is a production wall.


At the moment, there is no alternative to gasoline, diesel, or jet fuel, just like there is no alternative to air or water.

We cannot live without them. We won't even try.

There is no price wall short of collapse.

I disagree. Even if you were right about the lack of current alternatives to oil, there are still plenty of ways to use less oil -- yes, even the Chinese can do it if it gets too expensive. As long as we can use less oil if forced to do so by the high price, we can eventually use less-enough oil to cause the price to crash.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby americandream » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 01:19:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilFinder2', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'D')o you honestly believe that the Chinese will meekly revert to the days of Maoist agri-collectivism or even worse without a fight for preferential access to the remaining oil in a bid to neutralise the market?

If the price of gas in China goes up to $5/gallon, $8/gallon and even $20/gallon, they will have no choice but to seek some alternative to consuming ever-increasing amounts of oil.

But since the price will become increasingly unaffordable to them, that alone will solve much of their problem (they will consume less).

Going to war against the US or anyone else for some remaining oil reserves is not in their best interest. As I've said numerous times now, their economy is dependent upon exports to the rest of the world. If, for example, they went to war with the US over oil in Iraq, they've be biting the hand that feeds them. They're too smart to do something so dumb.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'D')o you still persist in believing that the market will determine oil access as peak oil begins to set in? How do you sustain such a beliefe in the face of all the evidence to date. Please, how do you do it

If you believe that oil consumption will continue to increase if even the price goes up to $250/barrel, $500/barrel or more, it is you who are sustaining a belief in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Nobody can pay infinite amounts for oil, or anything else for that matter.


The point at which what you contemplate occurs, is the point at which the niceties of the market will be tossed out the window in preference for force. I don't think that the Chinese leadership or the leadership of any other major economies will be concerned with the exports, rather they will be desperately seeking to protect the status quo at all costs, including preserving as much of the internal economy notwithstranding the collapse of external trading.

Consequently, I do believe that violent methods will be resorted to by the major economies in the final analysis in a bid to preserve internal energy consumption. The consumption profile in the West and Chindia bar a few tweaks, is fixed IMHO, whether it be serviced through the market or via the barrel of a gun.

I, unlike you, do not expect any major demand destruction. Destruction of large swathes of the planet yes, but meaningful demand destruction, no.
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby copious.abundance » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 01:21:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'E')mbracing the big picture has been one of my mantras for almost 4 years.

Monte you're so funny! :-D Man, you're on a roll tonight! :-D

But if you say you're a "big picture" person, I'd recommend you read the following book, since this is clearly a hole in your "big picture":

--> LINKY <--
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 01:25:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilFinder2', ' ') I disagree. Even if you were right about the lack of current alternatives to oil, there are still plenty of ways to use less oil -- yes, even the Chinese can do it if it gets too expensive. As long as we can use less oil if forced to do so by the high price, we can eventually use less-enough oil to cause the price to crash.


Then I suggest you spend some time reading about what is going on in China.

The forward momentum of growth there won't be impeded by price.
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby SILENTTODD » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 01:25:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SILENTTODD', 'W')orld wide Demand Destruction will not occur until countries that subsidize the price (use) of gasoline (China, India, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iran, ect, ect) allow it to be priced to world levels. It will come back to bite them in the butt, but not before it has decimated the American and possibly the European economies.


Not only is that not going to happen, but I think the gross amount of subsidies will actually increase as the price rises. That includes the US, where I expect some combination of a sort of fuel consumption tax cut, some kind of income tax credit or a kind of rebate to offset rising fuel and/or heating costs.


Capitalism does work; but not in ways most people are going to like. That's why so many governments will try to inhibit its tried and true effects (but to no avail).
Skeptical scrutiny in both Science and Religion is the means by which deep thoughts are winnowed from deep nonsense-Carl Sagan
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby americandream » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 01:35:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SILENTTODD', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SILENTTODD', 'W')orld wide Demand Destruction will not occur until countries that subsidize the price (use) of gasoline (China, India, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iran, ect, ect) allow it to be priced to world levels. It will come back to bite them in the butt, but not before it has decimated the American and possibly the European economies.


Not only is that not going to happen, but I think the gross amount of subsidies will actually increase as the price rises. That includes the US, where I expect some combination of a sort of fuel consumption tax cut, some kind of income tax credit or a kind of rebate to offset rising fuel and/or heating costs.


Capitalism does work; but not in ways most people are going to like. That's why so many governments will try to inhibit its tried and true effects (but to no avail).


Capitalism does what it must.
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 01:39:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilFinder2', 'B')ut if you say you're a "big picture" person, I'd recommend you read the following book, since this is clearly a hole in your "big picture":


Energy is not your everyday commodity. It is just like air and water; we must have it...at any price.

I have been right about this for 3 years since I wrote the thread about it.
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby americandream » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 02:03:52

Not to worry Hogan. Oil prices will rise, the Dubaians will shut down their high rise technological wonders and go about their demand destroyed lifestyles like the rational god worshipping economic humans they (and the rest of us) are.
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby TheDude » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 02:36:45

You underestimate the tenacity of the typical motorist in the developing world, OF2. These are people who will spend a sizable fraction of their yearly income on the license plate - and up to $7k on a vanity plate, if well-heeled. These have "lucky numbers."

“Lucky” License Plates sell for $72000 | Weird Asia News

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')uperstitious Chinese drivers bid a total of 559,000 yuan (US$72,036) for six “lucky” vehicle registration plate numbers in northeastern China’s Jilin Province on Sunday.


More typical is 400-800 yuan, of course - about $58-116 - in a nation where the average income is $2025.

You are correct that this can't go on forever - and seem utterly clueless as to the ramifications, just like your tabulation of recent discoveries, which has yielded this:

Image

Oil Megaproject Update (July 2008)

Feel free to dismiss the validity of backdating if you want, you disagree with that chart's conclusions I remember. We sure are gobbling down on the feast all those years of reserve growth brought, aren't we? Pigging out on those trillions of barrels of unconventional oil.
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby Ayame » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 03:16:09

Lolz @ the chinese.

It seems you could go faster on a bicycle than sitting in that traffic jam of cars.

Anyway, as I see it, everyone around the world will feel the pressure of rising oil prices. Africans will be the worst hit as they are the poorest and will fall off the olduvai cliff first and nobody will really care apart from Bono. In the first world we will pish posh about alternatives as the middle class gets ever more impoverished and discontented with the increasing costs of food and fuel. Countries around the world that subsidise oil are already reducing their subsidies as their finances can't bare the strain anymore but whether this will reduce consumption is yet to be seen, in China the reduction in subsidies is actually expected to increase consumption as the oil companies supply more as they will be making less of a loss. The rising incomes of the chinese will probably be able to aborb increasing oil prices for the near future. China of course is ramping up coal as a cheaper alternative to oil but it's also being very strategic and with all the dollars it has accumulated it is investing in middle eastern countries and in return they are pledging to increase (in the case of Saudi Arabia double) oil supplies to China. The US it seems has gone for the conquering option instead. Our (UK) government otherwise know as 'Brown' went to the Jeddah meeting to ask the oil producing nations to invest in our nuclear power development in return for all the money the west was spending on oil. He was no doubt laughed out the room.

So the game is a foot. Countries will play strategically until someone gets really desperate (threat of total societal collapse) and then channel the people's frustration into a war probably.
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby hironegro » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 04:00:19

Does the report take into account the Gulf of Mexico, Brazil's off-shore field and Kazakhstan all opening up circa 2013?
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Re: IEA: World Oil Demand Will Continue Growing, Despite Pri

Unread postby Smudger » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 11:48:02

I think the report, as ever, does a on the one hand but on the other hand type review of the oil market. However I think the key thing is that it has directly flagged the lower production levels expected.

My sense is this is the next step in confirming we are peaking/peaked with the final step in November.
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Re: IEA: Developing countries must stop subsidizing fuel

Unread postby idiom » Sat 05 Jul 2008, 22:58:38

Maybe the the IEA should tell the States to add taxes. Yeah. that is just as likely.
Last edited by Ferretlover on Sun 22 Mar 2009, 10:31:43, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged with THE IEA Thread.
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