[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'P')lantangent,

Even better would have been to convert the US grid to HVDC. That would have yielded something like 30% increase electricity efficiency.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GASMON', '
')You could go the whole hog and do an "Apollo", make the world gasp, build a transcontinental Maglev. The technology is tried & tested. All you need is vision and balls. (and $$$$$$$$$ !!).

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '
')I never saw it as a threat to national soveriegnty, I just saw it as a way for the Texas GOP mafia to take business away from the blue state ports and funnel it all into the midwest.

[Oakley]

It should be apparent that government is the most inefficient form of organization in existence.

Did it take government to bring us the personal computer? Of course it did not. It was individuals using their intellect and drive to take the risk and we have something that we want and something that was economically justified for those who took the risk. Government brings things like a fraudulent monetary system and a bankrupt education system.

It is a prima facia case that if government is necessary to bring us something, it is not economically justified, and something that no sane person would consider investing in and that very few people want. And this is a prima facia case that more resources will likely be used than are produced (saved). That is why the government must make up the difference with a subsidy. And the financial loss that would otherwise occur without the subsidy represents the resource loss. Look at the ethanol scam. Look at what T. Boone Pickens tells us that we need, but only if government will put up the risk capital. If it can't stand on its own two feet it represents a squandering of precious resources.

If you individually look at only the benefit, and ignore the cost, then you likely will soon be deprived of your capital and be bankrupt. But when government looks at only the benefit, but ignores the cost, there is no bankruptcy; rather the losses are passed on to the taxpayers and economic dislocation becomes entrenched; esources are squandered.

If you think you are solving problems by looking to government solutions, then you face an even greater disaster than peak oil or deteriorating EROEI will soon enough bring to your doorstep. If there is a solution to mitigate the otherwise imminent end of the industrial age, it will come from the fertile minds of individuals and those who have the courage and the skill to invest in sound ventures, not from the larcenous minds of politicians and bureaucrats.

[Plantagenet]

2.25 billion of Obama's high speed rail money is going to California. What will it buy? Just engineering and environmental reviews.

There isn't going to be a single friggin' foot of track laid in California for the measly 2.25 billion

=Obama's high speed rail money won't actually build any any high speed rail

[Newfie]

Oakley,

Just for the record it DID take government to build the transcontinential railway as they gave huge tracts of land to the builders and other perks.

[mcgowanjm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'O')akley,

Just for the record it DID take government to build the transcontinential railway as they gave huge tracts of land to the builders and other perks.

[Oakley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'O')akley,

Just for the record it DID take government to build the transcontinential railway as they gave huge tracts of land to the builders and other perks.

[PrestonSturges]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', 'I')t should be apparent that government is the most inefficient form of organization in existence.

Did it take government to bring us the personal computer? .

[gnm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', 'I')t should be apparent that government is the most inefficient form of organization in existence.

Did it take government to bring us the personal computer? Of course it did not. It was individuals using their intellect and drive to take the risk and we have something that we want and something that was economically justified for those who took the risk. Government brings things like a fraudulent monetary system and a bankrupt education system.

[flapjax]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', 'I')t should be apparent that government is the most inefficient form of organization in existence.

Did it take government to bring us the personal computer? .

[emersonbiggins]

A 2007 report released by a commission to Congress estimated that a national high-speed rail system would run $357 billion (as of 2007).

There's no real reason to think this estimate has gone up in any meaningful way in two years and may, in fact, have come down since that time (due to deflation in construction materials, labor, etc.)

$357 billion looks like a bargain compared to what we've pissed our money away on the last few years. And, to echo the concerns of others in this thread, $8 billion is peeing into the wind. $8 billion per year for 40+ years - that is what will make things noteworthy.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '2').25 billion of Obama's high speed rail money is going to California. What will it buy? Just engineering and environmental reviews.

There isn't going to be a single friggin' foot of track laid in California for the measly 2.25 billion

=Obama's high speed rail money won't actually build any any high speed rail

[Newfie]

Well, I for one am skeptical of a national high speed rail network.

High speed rail looks great on the surface but it does not address any of our fundamental problems in a way that could not be done better by investing elsewhere.

I gave one example, HVDC conversion.

There are types of rail investment that make better sense and are more supportable. Interurbans come to mind, street cars that can either replace an automobile or provide travel to someone without.

In short HSR is a substitute for short haul air travel. Amtrak works well on the NE Corridor for that reason. It may even be a relief in other corridors. But bigger gains are to made by getting people to travel less, by having a more rational approach to the way we do business.

HSR is just substituting a pretty bad solution for a really horrible solution.

In this regard I highly support further funding of the TSA for they are surly on the forefront of discouraging domestic air travel. I encourage you to look at the claim form for lost baggage.........which includes property loss and WRONGFUL DEATH. (A#$holes)

On the other hand I expect that we will spend a lot of money on HSR and other transit projects over the next decade or so. So I guess there is really no reason for carping about the inevitable. I just wish we could be more pragmatic about the situation we are in and think more long term.

..............
My thinking is along these lines. HSR (or any other project) should have clear goals. To put it another way you should be able to state the problem you are tying to solve.

In my mind the problem is that we are using up non-renewable fuel and need to reduce usage. Therefore we should remove subsidies on travel and let the consumer feel its full weight. No trip is infinitely more efficient than any trip.

HSR is not a "green" solution. HSR is touted as an alternative to air travel or to traffic congestion. It is a convenience, and an excuse to say "we are doing something" no matter that it is not meaningful. It does not reduce trips, it makes them seem less expensive and more user friendly and convenient and environmental. In short we spoiled Americans want more of what we have become used to: ease and convenience at an affordable price.

Until we figure it out that we can not go forward with our BAU mentality then we will never find our way to a sustainable lifestyle. HSR is just another dead end on the path to this realization.

2¢

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')In this regard I highly support further funding of the TSA for they are surly on the forefront of discouraging domestic air travel. I encourage you to look at the claim form for lost baggage.........which includes property loss and WRONGFUL DEATH. (A#$holes)

[PrestonSturges]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'O')akley,

Just for the record it DID take government to build the transcontinential railway as they gave huge tracts of land to the builders and other perks.

[Graeme]

Obama's high-speed rail plan: It could be transformative, but stations (and architecture) matter as much as speed

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')hicago, 2020: A lawyer in Willis Tower gets an urgent call from his top client in St. Louis at 8 a.m. requesting a face-to-face meeting. The lawyer makes the short walk to a dramatically refurbished Union Station and boards a high-speed, Japanese-made bullet train at 9 a.m. He arrives in St. Louis two hours later, has his meeting and is so certain of making a quick return trip that he doesn’t even ned to call his wife and tell her he’ll be home for dinner.

That vision of the future may be at least decade away, but the $8 billion in state grants for high-speed rail that President Barack Obama announced Thursday is by far the most important infrastructure initiative in the $787 billion federal stimulus package. This isn’t just fixing crumbling roads and bridges. It could revolutionize the way we move and live.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')It could revolutionize the way we move and live.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '
')So perhaps the last time the .gov drove any sort of innovation? Maybe 1961? Well unless you consider fraudulent economic derivative shenanigans "innovation"..

[Graeme]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')It could revolutionize the way we move and live.